95 coaches online • Server time: 21:14
Index Search Usergroups Profile
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post Wrestle Gutter Runne...goto Post snotling ball carrie...goto Post Missing encoding of ...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2021 - 13:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Similar to this post https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=758492

In current [C] div there is BB2020 but no Seasons yet, so we don't need to worry about trying to grow fast or gold management.
We're still matching by TV, so for skillups the TV cost is more important than the SPP cost


Random skills cost half the TV and SPP, so are an obvious advantage, but if you get bad rolls then you need to replace the players


I'll use a Lizardman team example
Krox *needs* Guard, so best idea is to just pay 20k for it
And then either save for Block at 40k, Or take random ST skills after that, as they're much less important. Hopefully you get Stand Firm
This probably applies to all Big Guys

Skinks, score 1 TD and take a random skill
If they get something good, keep
If they get something bad, fire

If you're short on cash you'll need to keep the bad skills
If one of them gets Sprint, that one becomes main ball carrier, save up 20 SPP for +MV and then you have a 1turn scoring option, it's very strong for lizards to be able to reliably buy this for 90k


Saurus really need Block
I wanted to roll only random General skills in the hopes of getting Block, Tackle, maybe Frenzy or Pro for 10k
If I got Block or Wrestle, I thought I could then start rolling STR skills and hope for Guard, Mighty Blow, maybe Stand Firm

Unfortunately, having a set of Saurus without Block just causes too many failures

I think the right way to go would be pay 20k each for the first 3-4 Saurus to get Block immediately, then the team gets a lot stronger
Those guys can roll random skills after that

Then the remaining guys can roll random General skills, and cycle them until they get something useful. Then buy Block. Then continue on random skills?


A team like Humans, you'd want Guard / MB on all the blitzers immediately, but the linemen could just take random skills
Or Dark Elves, they'd want Dodge on the blitzers but could just take randoms for linemen

Black Orcs are maybe ideal for rolling only randoms, the goblins only have primary access to A-skills anyway and the BOs already have Brawler so don't need Block as much, and rolling S-skills is from a list of only 9 available choices


So there's value in taking first skill as random and cycling players until you hit on a good roll,
But it hampers your team, so probably need to wait until the team is 'established' and already has 'enough' basic skills, and spare cash, before it's a good idea


What are people's thoughts on this?
What are you doing with your teams?


Last edited by Sp00keh on Nov 01, 2021 - 13:40; edited 1 time in total
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2021 - 13:34 Reply with quote Back to top

1 chosen primary requires 6SPP
2 random primaries only requires 7SPP

Using my random skilled Saurus as an example:

1) Wrestle and Arm Bar for 20k, not worth really it, should replace, but need to keep for now
2) Kick and Dauntless for 20k, Kick is nice but should replace because I lack Block
3) Shadowing and Pro and Block for 30k. Worth it now. I should have replaced after he got Shadow, but if the Block would have cost 20k then Shadowing and Pro together for 10k is good
4) Break Tackle for 10k, not worth it, replaced
5) Dauntless for 10k, not worth it, replaced
uzkulak



Joined: Mar 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2021 - 15:11 Reply with quote Back to top

"but if you get bad rolls then you need to replace the players"

Or, you could keep them and live with the consequences of your actions. Just make it work with what you have.

IMO, cycling players sucks and shouldn't be encouraged.
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2021 - 15:43 Reply with quote Back to top

There is nothing wrong with rehiring players, neither there is anything wrong in using your treasury on other things like inducements.
awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2021 - 15:45 Reply with quote Back to top

uzkulak wrote:
IMO, cycling players sucks and shouldn't be encouraged.

but that's exactly what BB2020 is all about, if I've understood well. short seasons, random rolls, fresh teams: bloodbowl went tiktok with short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops applied to a board game.

_________________
"la virtú sta nel cielo e nella terra, ma anche nelle nuvole e nelle stelle"

Image
uzkulak



Joined: Mar 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2021 - 16:44 Reply with quote Back to top

awambawamb wrote:
uzkulak wrote:
IMO, cycling players sucks and shouldn't be encouraged.

but that's exactly what BB2020 is all about, if I've understood well. short seasons, random rolls, fresh teams: bloodbowl went tiktok with short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops applied to a board game.


yeah - rehiring at the end of the season. But as the OP points out seasons arent implemented on fumbbl yet so what we are talking about here is the most active, devious and dastardly minmaxers creating an imbalanced situation where their teams are valued at less tv than teams with fewer skills which belong to less active players.

Agree in the longer term it will all work itself out (probably/hopefully/maybe!).

But Im afraid Im clear in my view that cycling players before seasons are implemented is not something to be encouraged.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2021 - 16:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Agreed @awambawamb
Also the increased gold income

My feeling is [C] having no Seasons but still having TV matching actually incentivises random skills and therefore cycling even more

Edit @uzkulak
Yea.. I am looking at this from an 'efficency' point of view, rather than an ethical one.

I suppose that's a different question
My original query was about, how to handle this situation to make maximum use of it
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2021 - 16:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:

What are people's thoughts on this?
What are you doing with your teams?

Lots of randoms and a few picks.
Playing Halfings in our league.
Flings take random General and most get fired. Statistically I will eventually get block/wrestle/sure hands. Not happened yet.
Trees are saving up for Block, or possibly +MA. If I was keeping them for more than a season those would be the skills to take.

Sp00keh wrote:
Similar to this post https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=758492
Skinks, score 1 TD and take a random skill
If they get something good, keep
If they get something bad, fire

If you wait for 2 TD they get a random General which seems much better to me. Block, Wrestle, Sure Hands - all good on Skinks or any Stunty player. Tackle, Kick, Dauntless, Pro are acceptable on a Skink. Maybe some others.

Sp00keh wrote:

Unfortunately, having a set of Saurus without Block just causes too many failures

This is true for most players and why those teams with core skills are looking better.

uzkulak wrote:
IMO, cycling players sucks and shouldn't be encouraged.

It is the way of the new game. We have one player that has been keeping his players and moaning about stuff like Thick Skull and Pile Driver Black Orcs. He then used PO the next game on got 2 cas! Anecdotal I know.

There is a balance somewhere between Fun and Min-Max. You will see a lot more teams carrying one or two odd skills on the team and others will just fire anyone without perfect skills.
Chrisdekok



Joined: Aug 09, 2021

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2021 - 18:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Scumming is a good countermeasure to minmaxing through cycling.
When you show up with your meticulously crafted team the non cycling opponent with coffers full of gold might pop a wizard on your backside🙂
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2021 - 18:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Chrisdekok wrote:
Scumming is a good countermeasure to minmaxing through cycling.
When you show up with your meticulously crafted team the non cycling opponent with coffers full of gold might pop a wizard on your backside🙂


I do agree there and also hope that new scheduler does not for this reason pair with tv.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2021 - 11:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Thought of another use-case for random skills: Scoring with a Loner

If you score with a journeyman lineman, you get enough SPP for 1 primary random
So, might as well roll it. If it's good, you can then hire the guy
If it's bad, you can just let him go, and it didn't even cost you any gold to cycle players in this way



Also. After some further games with BB2020, I now lean more towards taking chosen essential skills (like Block, or Guard) and then taking random skills after that, for a variety of player types
neilwat



Joined: Aug 01, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2021 - 14:56
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

I have a human team where every player only takes randoms, surprise surprise it is not a great idea. From this though I feel that it is an ok idea for lineman to go randoms.

With goblins, snotlings and similar stunties they do their job with no skills and most the agility skills are not great anyway. So far with these I have been saving for random secondaries with the aim of getting block, dp, wrestle etc. This works ok and you just sack them if you don't get anything good.

With ogres if you have the cash then I am trying to go for a random secondary as their first skill, then will build them from there. Possibly more effective is just taking guard, standfirm, break tackle or saving for block first. I am undecided on this approach. Block is pricey in Spps if you take 2 strength skills first.

Overall I feel the random skills on standard lineman might be the best place for random skills and might be better than saving to choose a skill, and then random secondaries on stunties might be better than saving to choose skills.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2021 - 15:20 Reply with quote Back to top

neilwat wrote:
Possibly more effective is just taking guard, standfirm, break tackle or saving for block first.

Brawler is a nice Strength skill too for the cost, on high Strength players without General access.
I took it on my WE Treeman.
Block is king, of course, but if you want a decent and quick blocking reliability (and the Season is short) Brawler is quite good. Brawler is not better than Block, but for sure it's better than no blocking skill at all.

neilwat wrote:
Overall I feel the random skills on standard lineman might be the best place for random skills and might be better than saving to choose a skill, and then random secondaries on stunties might be better than saving to choose skills.

Season length is important to decide. With short Season taking random skills on Linemen is more appealing, because you could get no skills at all before Season's end.
I take random Primary skills on cheap Linemen (fishing for either Block, Wrestle, Kick, Dirty Player) and random Secondary skill on Stunties (for example Orc Goblin, when I used him). It's important that the Linemen are cheap to use this approach, so you can fire and easily replace them in case you don't like the random skill you got. So, players priced 50k or less.
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2021 - 22:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
4) Break Tackle for 10k, not worth it, replaced
Really? That's a great Sauri skill, ideally you want Block first, but if you're taking a rando I'd be very happy with BT.

_________________
Better lucky than good
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 20, 2021 - 23:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Break Tackle has been changed in BB2020:
once during their activation, after making an Agility test in order to Dodge, this player may modify the dice roll by +1 if their Strength is 4 or less or by +2 if their Strength is 5 or more.

Not worth on Saurus anymore.
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic