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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2021 - 06:21 Reply with quote Back to top

I suppose the answer is YES. Do you agree"

Does anyone disagree with that? Why?

I ask because I was looking over the BB2020 Orc, Old World, Underworld, and Chaos Renegades Rosters, and WOWEE WOW WOWEE Shocked do those Rosters have ALOT of Animosity or WUT, derr?
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 01, 2021 - 07:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes.

But the little secret is that Orcs were terrible in the old rules and got fixed by giving the ST4 guys MA5. Animosity is just there to make you think they didn't get massively buffed, and that was only necessary because a lot of coaches didn't understand how bad Orcs sucked in BB2016 and LRB5/6.

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Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2021 - 02:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I won't be able to have a go with one of my favorite CRAZY IDEAS TEAM in BB2020 with all that Animosity. But it's no big deal. I only played maybe 15 games total with that CRAZY IDEA.

It was all Lineman, Goblin, and Troll team.
I really had to go all out to WIN and TIE with that roster.
But without the Linemen being able to at least ATTEMPT the Hand-Off when needed I don't think I could SCORE enough to do better than a 0-0 or 1-1 TIE in most games.
They were lots of fun.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2021 - 04:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Linemen don't have animosity toward Blitzers or Big'Uns. Goblins don't have it at all. Carry with a Goblin until you luck into a carrier Lineman.

_________________
Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2021 - 05:40 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
Linemen don't have animosity toward Blitzers or Big'Uns. Goblins don't have it at all. Carry with a Goblin until you luck into a carrier Lineman.



Well... that is solid advice for ORCS (I think).

But it doesn't help at all with my team that only has Linemen, Goblins, and Trolls OH MY!!!

My Linemen only have other Linemen to Hand-Off to on that Team because the Troll and Goblins are busy trying to TTM every single Offensive Possession.

And the Goblins are either Flying for Touchdowns OR Flying to SPLAT. OR the Goblins are standing around while the Troll picks his Nose instead of Throwing them OR Dropping Them or EATING THEM!!!
So they tend to DIE a lot and I only get 4 and usually at least 1 is missing the game, 1 is Injured or EATEN during the game and 1 more is Ejected for Fouling.
The only 1 left is giving the Troll a TZ and waiting for the Ball to arrive.

The Linemen are either protecting the Primary Pocket around the Troll and Goblins.
OR
They are Blitzing down a Sideline to create the Secondary Pocket where the Goblin will hopefully LAND or go SPLAT and they can protect the ball if the Goblin goes Splat and hopefully recover it for a Touchdown next turn.
OR
They are creating the Downfield Blocking needed to score if the Troll and Goblins Fail to succeed on a TTM.

That is the ENTIRE OFFENSE!!! (I actually YELLED that sentence.)
They can't really do anything else. TOO CRAZY. Shocked
C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2021 - 08:47 Reply with quote Back to top

You know that Animosity is a 2+ roll right? So rarely likely to be an issue (literally only once in every 6 handoff attempts). It's hardly a showstopper
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2021 - 11:49 Reply with quote Back to top

The fact is, with Season Redraft you can't waste skill slots taking less useful skills.
The Blitzers need Guard, MB, Tackle, 1 should be ball carrier with Sure Hands and Dodge, the 4 Big Uns need Block, Guard, the Troll Guard (or Brawler), the Lineorcs either don't bother with skills or they just take random.
No room to take Pro. Also, although Animosity can hamper a pass/hand off sometimes, most of times it will not be an issue, and if you really need to pass/hand off the ball you are better off using a team rr, because you can use multiple rrs per turn now.

As an aside, I don't think Orcs were terrible in BB2016.
I had good win rate with them in the Box, even at mid-high TV.
Adding 4 Big Uns in my opinion was not necessary.
I would have made a Big Un team (instead of the Black Orc team we have now) and left the Black Orcs on the default Orc team. I would have replaced the Orc Thrower with an Orc Runner (MA 6, AV 8, Sure Hands). The MA 5 Thrower is still useless.
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2021 - 12:53 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
The fact is, with Season Redraft you can't waste skill slots taking less useful skills.


If you face the end of the season one "bad" situational skill might be of more benefit than no skill at all if you don't plan to redraft that player anyway. I believe in certain league environments or number of matches based environments this might become a factor and allow some interesting team management decision making.

Animosity for Orcs most times feels like a fluffy side note. But I think the higher Movement for Big Uns is a greater buff. Pro might be in general a wise skill for players in BB20 with random MVP and more common (?) MNGs, makes it harder to focus on an individual player's progress and PRO makes them slightly better at nearly everything.

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2021 - 15:04 Reply with quote Back to top

I take Pro on Blitzers now after Mighty Blow and Tackle. It nets me about one knockdown per game, never skulls you out on a 2d block anymore, and sometimes comes in handy on other rolls (icing on the cake).

On a 2d block for pow or pow/push, with Pro for your worst roll if no knockdown, and a team RR for double skulls, your chance of rolling something you'd Pro is 5/12. Given a 2/3 success chance for Pro, that's 5/18 of a reroll, yielding 5/54 of a knockdown. That's almost 10% of the pie taken from push or both down and put into knockdown, increasing your knockdown odds from 60/108 to 70/108, a 16.667% improvement. That's much bigger than turning a 3+ AG roll from 18/27 to 22/27, though that too is pretty cool, as a fringe bennie.

Pro is an important, if not major, part of the GS-access blitzer killstack in these rules. Just one, on your main hitter. It's only 80% as damaging as the old Pro on 2d (it's better on 1d, worse on 3d), but it never skulls you out rerolling 2d pushes anymore.

Unlike MattD, I don't really value carriers and carrier skills in these rules. Sure Hands on a Blitzer makes some sense, in that I want to have a MA6 Sure Hands player at some point just in case of Strip Ball. Maybe that's what the Thrower is for: 15k over a Lineman and he can pitch it on short clock or OTS attempts and play full-time against Strip Ball teams. But I'm not sacrificing a perfectly good Blitzer on the altar of having a dedicated carrier: spreading the love among the youngsters is how you stay competitive. I'd rather spend the 40k I'd have spent redrafting Dodge by redrafting Guard and getting another skill on my killer.

Also a thing is the tournament push. Second-tier skills and stat-ups are great if you're building up for a tourney and don't plan to return the player afterward. I'm not sure Pro on a Blitzer is really in that category if you take it with all the complementary skills: it's useful for almost anything you do, and now that Big 'Uns are better Frenzy players, the remaining kill-stack has gotten kinda shallow. Mighty Blow and Tackle sure, but then, Juggernaut, Pro, and ... uh ... Grab? Pile Driver?

MB/T/Pro has rocketed one of my Blitzers: he's about to hit skill #4 as a stat, and I'm to the point where I'm going to try to put the brakes on him so I don't have to pay for it in the redraft. That way I can fish for +2 MA and and Juggernaut in his second season, with the knowledge that I probably wouldn't keep him through cut-down time, but he'll be super fun with OTS potential in whatever tourney I enter him into after game #30. (And with the new 15-game cap, I'd actually enter tournaments again.)

_________________
Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
Tesifonte



Joined: Sep 06, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2021 - 19:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:


It was all Lineman, Goblin, and Troll team.
I really had to go all out to WIN and TIE with that roster.
But without the Linemen being able to at least ATTEMPT the Hand-Off when needed I don't think I could SCORE enough to do better than a 0-0 or 1-1 TIE in most games.
They were lots of fun.


I fucking love you.

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TaChIkOmA! \o/
smeborg



Joined: Jan 04, 2019

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2021 - 20:11 Reply with quote Back to top

C0ddlefish wrote:
You know that Animosity is a 2+ roll right? So rarely likely to be an issue (literally only once in every 6 handoff attempts). It's hardly a showstopper

Yes, of course, but you have to understand that odds in BB are "different" to the "real world".

I took 3 passes in scrambles with an Orc Thrower in one game. Any 1 would have given me the win. All 3 were rolls of 1 for Animosity.

As the saying goes, if Blaise Pascal had been a BB player, the whole theory of probability would have been different...
smeborg



Joined: Jan 04, 2019

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2021 - 20:12 Reply with quote Back to top

C0ddlefish wrote:
You know that Animosity is a 2+ roll right? So rarely likely to be an issue (literally only once in every 6 handoff attempts). It's hardly a showstopper

Yes, of course, but you have to understand that odds in BB are "different" to the "real world".

I took 3 passes in scrambles with an Orc Thrower in one game. Any 1 would have given me the win. All 3 were rolls of 1 for Animosity.

As the saying goes, if Blaise Pascal had been a BB player, the whole theory of probability would have been different...
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2021 - 20:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Heh, that was against me.

_________________
Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 04, 2021 - 02:52 Reply with quote Back to top

C0ddlefish wrote:
You know that Animosity is a 2+ roll right? So rarely likely to be an issue (literally only once in every 6 handoff attempts). It's hardly a showstopper


True but I am also talking about using a completely suboptimal lineup too. No starting skills (not really). Featuring an Offense around the Ability of a Troll to Throw a Goblin.
Or desperately trying to score with MA5 players when that strategy doesn't work. The hand-offs fail often enough when they are attempted.
Not handing off at all 1 in 6 times is really cutting the margin for error threadbare.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 04, 2021 - 03:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Tesifonte wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:


It was all Lineman, Goblin, and Troll team.
I really had to go all out to WIN and TIE with that roster.
But without the Linemen being able to at least ATTEMPT the Hand-Off when needed I don't think I could SCORE enough to do better than a 0-0 or 1-1 TIE in most games.
They were lots of fun.


I fucking love you.


Embarassed


Aw, shucks.
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