| Poll |
| Is BB20 really a problem? |
| Yes. |
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18% |
[ 29 ] |
| I miss CLAWPOMB. |
|
10% |
[ 16 ] |
| Dwarfs still like it. |
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14% |
[ 22 ] |
| Game should use 1d8 instead of 1d6. |
|
9% |
[ 15 ] |
| I've left fumbbl since the update and didn't even read this. |
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7% |
[ 12 ] |
| Throw Team Mate is bugged. |
|
3% |
[ 5 ] |
| I will always find a way to minmax! |
|
11% |
[ 18 ] |
| Pie. |
|
24% |
[ 38 ] |
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| Total Votes : 155 |
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Lyracian
Joined: Oct 29, 2015
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 Posted:
Jun 18, 2022 - 11:20 |
 
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TLDR - Personally I like BB2020 rules. Sure there are some problems with them but hopefully BB2025 will build on this base and imrove.
New passing stat makes sense. Human and Skaven Throwers are now better at throwing. Happy with a 4+ as standard for all linemen. As much as I love Elves they always seemed too good doing everything on twos. Not sure why most of the other positional players are worse than average though? I also cannot understand what they wanted to achieve with Wildly Inaccurate.
Passing is always going to need two dice rolls and I do not see that ever changing. Ideally we need better passing skills not the weaker version we got by breaking existing skills into two! Running Pass and Fumbleruskie are interesting but I am never going to use them because Block, Dodge and Guard are just so much more important.
I like the new skill system and redrafting seems alright just not quite finished. Rules are unclear as to how long a season should be? Six games? Twelve? It is working fine for our tabletop league where most coaches start a new team each season. With the cap redrafted teams are ~1200 TV. Not a massive difference from those starting at 1000 TV; you can have reached that gap after four or five games in the league. I also like that cash is actually a resource you can use now.
Overall Weather and Kick off table are better. There are niggles with how Blitz is worded and the unevenness of Prayers. Lets hope it is just a d8 for League and Tournament play next time around.
Rules have started to clean up with 'placed prone', 'knocked down' and another pass to actually clean these all up and put keywords in bold should help. Jumping is interesting but I mostly forget it exists. I have managed to use it once to score by jumping over my own prone player. |
_________________
Nuffle wills it.
Lyracian. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Jun 18, 2022 - 11:47 |
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| Lyracian wrote: | | As much as I love Elves they always seemed too good doing everything on twos. |
I agree, but now the Elves have been nerfed too much.
They can't get as easily stat boosts, they can't focus MVP on positionals, they can't Leap as well as they used to do, without a Thrower they have to run with the ball (which was a thing in past ruleset, but then every Elf could do an emergency pass, if needed).
So, it would have been right to boost the Elven Blitzers by giving them S access (DE should lose 2 Blitzers, though, or they would be better Humans).
Elves would have not been overpowered.
Nerfing pass is ok IF the running game is nerfed as well.
They nerfed pass and actually improved the running game thanks to multiple rr and underpriced +MA boost.
Instead, with old rules and max 1 rr per turn having skills such as Pass and Catch would have made a difference in terms of reliable passing.
Now a bash team with a MA 7 or 8 ball carrier can just make 2 GFIs, hand off the ball and score with multiple rr or even TTM.
Elves don't pass as well as they are supposed to do, they don't bash either, where is the point in playing them? Yes they can disengage more easily, but that's it. AG is overpriced for what it does now. |
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razmus
Joined: Jun 23, 2017
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| Posted:
Jun 18, 2022 - 13:12 |
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| Malmir wrote: | | [...]sending people off for no reason on the kick off table[...] |
But it seems to me that the rule it replaced would maim or kill players for no reason. I thought merely sending them to the dungeon for a game was an IMPROVEMENT. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 18, 2022 - 13:25 |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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| Posted:
Jun 18, 2022 - 13:26 |
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razmus, there is no improvement, never ever |
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Vlad Von Carstein's door-to-door evangelist |
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razmus
Joined: Jun 23, 2017
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| Posted:
Jun 18, 2022 - 13:58 |
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Okay, okay... no improvements... just things I actually like better in BB2020:
1. As a mediocre coach who ends up facing much better coaches/teams in leagues -- I like that their fan factor doesn't kill me in those kickoff rolls, and in fact their prior success provides me more cash at the end of the game.
2. Trolls and Ogres now get credit for that perfect stunty toss. I don't think any of my guys have thrown one yet... in BB2020, I've had a troll actually eat a gobbo for the first time on FUMBBL, but that isn't a new happening. But SPP for throw-teammate! YAY! (That said, with wildly inaccurate throws, I suppose it's become more likely they're gonna toss those little guys right into the crowd. Boo. And I don't like the recent change made in the recent FAQ either...  )
3. As a Khemri fan, the changes to On The Ball make me smile.
4. As a Nurgle fan, the changes to Foul Appearance make me chortle.
5. I find random skills kinda fun... and after (hmm... how many years?) five years on FUMBBL, might manage to get my first player to Legend.
No, they don't make up for what I see as currently broken in the ruleset, but figured while speens are being vented, I'd spread a little sunshine. 
I'm still looking forward to seeing the implementation of Seasons/Redraft to see if that doesn't mitigate some of the issues seen with star players.
And I'm curious to see how the mulch attachment for the Pump Wagons deal with slow dwar... what's that? It hasn't been announced yet? Oh... nevermind... carry on with your Saturday (Or Sunday in the Southern Wastes as the case may be...) |
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sebco
Joined: Feb 14, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 21, 2022 - 16:47 |
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I started to play BB a long time ago with 1st BB edition but I only became a real BB addict with 3rd edition.
3rd edition core mechanics still remain now. Current BB is a kind of updated 3rd edition, it’s not a totally new game (in my opinion, there are more differences between 1st and 2nd editions or between 2nd and 3rd editions than between 3rd and current editions, even if more years have passed).
According to me, all Living Rule Books (LRB) have moved the game in the right direction, even if I sometimes criticized some new rules (I do still remember when I discovered Tomb Guardians have lost Mighty Blow).
When GW directly got back their hands on game with BB 2016, I was first afraid BB started to move in a bad direction. Finally, GW didn’t really touch the rules. They only completed the game with new rosters, new star players and other inducements. I was named a BB 2016 coach but didn’t even buy BB 2016 box, still had my LRB 6 in my BB miniatures cases (with a paper which sumed up new rules from Spike magazines).
When BB 2020 leaks started appearing on the internet, I completely changed my tune. I immersed myself in the rules , I first jumped on the rules debates on social networks then on the official FAQs, I bought BB 2020 box then all Spike magazines and even card packs while I didn’t buy anything from BB 2016 edition (except some minis).
As a BB collector, I’m happy with this new edition. As a coach, I still don’t know.
I like the rulebook as an object. I also like the way it has been reorganized (no more basic rules then « extra rules » which splitted rules which had to be explained together, a general principles chapter, special actions and throw team mate actions considered as actions in their own right and no longer sprinkled in skill descriptions, etc…). And there are many little modifications I like (projectile vomit, jumping over prone or stunned players, etc...)
But I think LRB 6 / BB 2016 were the culmination of a clarification of the rules step by step and that BB 2020 was a fresh start with pesky new approximations appearing (that’s less evident when we play on FUMBBL as FUMBBL team did an impressive work on implementing the rules and we only have to follow what client does but that’s palpable when we play tabletop).
And I'm also disappointed with several changes to the game's meta. In my opinion :
-inducements (star players in particular) are now too powerful (too cheap and accessible to too many teams), that's a stronger appeal to minmaxing and that's a real big problem with some teams (snotlings starting at TV 300-350 or underworld remaining around 1000 with many games and skills, for example)
-in league (that’s different in resurrection tourneys), it seems harder for non-bashy teams and I fear there will be less variety in the types of teams involved.
For the moment, these are not yet clear facts. I'm really looking forward to the resumption of the Black Box here to see which rosters are doing well in an environment in which you don't choose your opponents. |
_________________
I like cheese but don't call me skaven !
Last edited by sebco on %b %21, %2022 - %22:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Jun 21, 2022 - 20:10 |
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I think part of the gripe is coming from people who aren't ready for the new environment, and aren't thinking with their BB2020 hats yet. Like, elves are pretty viable still, though you have to build into them. I've learned that starting without many positionals but with full Dedicated Fans and plenty of re-rolls is a very strong way to start. Sure, you don't get to prance around with high MA and blodgy leapy goodness, but that's not what this edition is about so much. If you want a compromise, play Elven Union, they can do a little of both.
But High Elves are consistently the second best tournament team, and when the majors come back, building an effective High Elf or Dark Elf team for postseason Competitive tournament play won't be hard. Just randomize the first skill on your linemen for the first season, and develop based on what you got, hiring the best players back and letting the Shadowing guys fade away at end of season (assuming they don't die on the line). Then, in your second season, you have enough money to hire position players AND rerolls on say 1100k, and still have 250k in cheap skills on linemen and a few developed positionals, plus agent fees. Your first season record may suffer a little, or not. But now you have a season to build up your positionals, plus probably one or two good ones, and whatever lucky linemen rolled Guard, Grab, or Mighty Blow, or took a skill track you want to keep off of a random (Tackle/Wrestle, say). Then, at the end of your second season, you'll be bristling with talent at a reasonable TV. And then after your season is done, redraft almost nothing, maybe one or two players who don't hog SPP but do important things you can't do with rookies (Guard, say, or Wrackle), and take a full suite with Apo and 3 RR, then build up again for 30 games before the next major. Not everyone can do this, but it'll be a thing.
I can't speak to Wood Elves, that's not my bag, baby. But here's me betting the best league roster for Wood Elves is 1 Thrower, 10 Linemen, 3 RR, 6 DF. Wardancers and Catchers are for after you get your Apothecary. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor.
Last edited by JackassRampant on %b %21, %2022 - %20:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 21, 2022 - 20:31 |
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- get back the one-reroll-per-turn rule. Without it, the bloodbowl I love (which is a risk management game) simply becomes something else.
- get rid of the wildly inaccurate thing. It is idiotic and passing really didn't need it anyway.
Do those two things, and I think I can hop on the bb2020 wagon.
But as long as those two things exist, I'll keep my bb2016 hat on, thanks. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Jun 21, 2022 - 20:34 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | | hiring the best players back and letting the Shadowing guys fade away at end of season (assuming they don't die on the line). |
Personally I wouldn't keep for so long Shadowing Linelves. Shadowing is a terribad skill.
Now my strategy is having 13-14 players whenever possible (2 Blitzers, 1 Thrower, 1 Catcher, the rest Linelves), choosing Primary skills on positionals (and Secondary if I have earned enough SPPs) and stat boosts.
Since I have many Linelves with this approach it's not uncommon that 1 of them gets a random Primary skill. If it's good, I keep him, if it's bad I fire him as soon as possible (unless this makes the roster drop to fewer than 13 players, in that case I keep a bad Random skill).
I don't wait for many Linelves to get random skills, otherwise I don't manage to replace them.
Instead, by randomizing 1 skill on 1 them per game I can keep or fire and replacing him. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %22, %2022 - %11:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Jun 21, 2022 - 20:39 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | - get back the one-reroll-per-turn rule. Without it, the bloodbowl I love (which is a risk management game) simply becomes something else.
- get rid of the wildly inaccurate thing. It is idiotic and passing really didn't need it anyway.
|
I agree, and I say this after having actually tried the rules, so I have a more accurate idea now. Too many games were decided by a sequence of rrs, no tactic, just dice rolling. It's frustrating when Orcs, who are supposed to be clumsy at moving the ball, manage to score from their half of the pitch by pass + hand off + GFIs + dodges thanks to multiple rr.
About Wildly Inaccurate, I would change it like so:
- Pass skill reduces it to D3 scatter.
- Safe Pass: turns Wildly Inaccurate into Inaccurate, Inaccurate into Fumble, Fumble into held ball (no turnover).
That would make dedicated Throwers better at reducing the disaster effect of Wildly Inaccurate.
That said, I have played many games and Wildly Inaccurate didn't have a big impact. I mean, when you pass the ball it's generally on turn 8, even if you throw a Wildly Inaccurate most of times won't make a difference. Not saying it's a well-designed rule, but the concern about it is bigger than the actual effect on games, in my opinion.
Yes, it's a problem when you are punting, that's true.
Maybe they could have made the ball scatter from the target square, instead of thrower's square. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %22, %2022 - %11:%Jun; edited 6 times in total |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Jun 21, 2022 - 20:40 |
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Heh, I'm learning to love the multi-reroll thing. No longer does it take me four turns to draw out three rerolls. Playing for the critical moment is a thing too, and selling your opponent on the present moment at the expense of future ones, or watching them hold back on their guns until too late, that is good gamey fun. Also, the fact that you can't fire rerolls in season and can't hire extra ones between seasons means you have limited but not cripplingly limited options with regard to RR management. It's no less of a risk-management challenge, nay, it's more of one. It's just different.
Wildly Inaccurate is stupid. A rule that triggered on a 0 or less, that would have just been good fun. But letting it happen on a modified 1 or less, and treating all range bands as penalties, that makes punts really scary, and punts were some of the most exciting plays in the game. No disagreement on that front, though they could have kept the spirit. Heck, it could be on a 0 or less, or on an inaccurate 1 if throwing anything but the ball. That would keep the suspense with bombs (in both senses). |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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| Posted:
Jun 22, 2022 - 03:34 |
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Great thread. For me, as background, I have been playing TT Blood Bowl since 1988. I have been playing on this site since 2003 and have run leagues in all sorts of rulesets. Am now running a TT league with 2020 rules and a redraft.
I think overall 2020 is a good ruleset. I have a couple of dislikes (see below) but in the main, I think the meta system works "well". I think with the discussion on Elves, the meta of elf play is very different and by that, I think the Thrower is a premier position now (I typically play two) and you also have to have high Dedicated Fans to keep the cash coming. I have played pretty well with the Elf teams in 2020 Competitive Division and have had very strong winning records with Woodies, Pro and High Elves. I was skeptical, but Elf play is not "dead".
You also have to remember, Seasons as a concept was in 2016 rules and the SWL here on fumbbl has been using seasons ever since fumbbl became 2016 compliant. It does change the viewpoint of what blood bowl is. For those of you about building the 200spp Legend players, it is a big change, but for me, Blood Bowl as a game breaks down at high TV and becomes dominated by Chaos / Nurgle etc.
In 2020, most games are played (apart from season 1) in the 1300-1600 TV range and thats not a bad thing. You can have players with 3-4 skills, you may want to embrace the random skills, but you will still get players in your roster who are dominant presences. Yes, you will cut and fire linemen regularly and may have to make the odd tough decision at re-draft, but I do feel the "Blood Bowl Team" centric view rather than the "Star Player" view is a good thing.
Having said that, I do have a couple of desires to tweak 2020 rules:
1. Wildly Innacurate (as has been stated here numerous times) is simply a bad mechanic and needs to go outright. Trying to fit in this "fourth result state" in addition to Fumbles, Inaccurate or Accurate passes on a d6 is terrible game design. I have had in game chats with MattDakka on using d8's or more and I dont agree with that for other mechanics (as an old fogey, I remember the 2d6 block tables!) but if they wanted to be more nuanced with passing, then yes a d8 or even d16 for passing would be better.
2. If they got away with Wildly Inaccurate, then you need to also look at Elf passing. As I said, the key position in elf teams now is the Thrower. In Pro Elves, I start with two Throwers and one catcher. Throwers are not there to gain spp and do vanity passes, however they are strongly needed to move the ball quickly and efficiently to keep it out of scrums and cages. I hear coaches complain that the old spill the ball and throw it away using a lineman on a 2+ greatly hurts elf play. Whilst true, you need to look at how you use throwers on defence. This is why they're important. I feel the two most important skills are Sure Hands (for the 1 tackle zone pick ups) and Accurate (for the shuffle pass). However, I will concede that an Elf passing on a 4+ is rough. I would consider dropping the non-thrower PA stats down by a point for linemen only.
3. Throwing Skills: Alot of dead skills here to make up 12 skills. I would remerge Accurate and Cannoneer to be a +1 on all passes and I would look at changing alot of the others.
Other than that, and passing is a niche part of the game, I think the overall meta of 2020 is great. Our league of 20 teams has Norse, Underworld, Chaos and Necromantic in its semi finals and the SWL has great history of using seasons here on fumbbl with various winning races. I do appreciate that some people like to build players and that does take a hit in 2020 due to the re-draft mechanic, but alot of people I think are ambivalent about it or are supportive of the re-draft. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Jun 22, 2022 - 05:10 |
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@clayinfinty
I have not heard any complaints about redraft in C/B…the complaint or anxiety is that if/when it is implemented into C\B the redraft will be set at a stupidly low tv where a high TV team will be around 1350 tv.
I propose that the tv redraft base is 2000 tv and go from there. It makes every one happy. You can play low/mid or high tv then. It is totally up to you. If the tv redraft is set at let’s say 1300tv…well if you don’t don’t like low to mid level play in C/B, well it was fun while you where around on FUMBBL..saying you can always play in L is a weak argument. What if you don’t like playing in L? You are stuck playing a game you don’t like playing. |
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Comish of the:  |
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ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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| Posted:
Jun 22, 2022 - 10:38 |
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| PainState wrote: | @clayinfinty
I have not heard any complaints about redraft in C/B…the complaint or anxiety is that if/when it is implemented into C\B the redraft will be set at a stupidly low tv where a high TV team will be around 1350 tv.
I propose that the tv redraft base is 2000 tv and go from there. It makes every one happy. You can play low/mid or high tv then. It is totally up to you. If the tv redraft is set at let’s say 1300tv…well if you don’t don’t like low to mid level play in C/B, well it was fun while you where around on FUMBBL..saying you can always play in L is a weak argument. What if you don’t like playing in L? You are stuck playing a game you don’t like playing. |
Whilst I appreciate some people like high TV (2000k+), I think with the skill buy meta and the ability to save for Block on big guys and other juicy secondaries and Stat boosts, I think a high TV will see teams cycling thru players looking for random secondaries and cut/rebuy those that dont get lucky whilst perpetually submarining under the TV cap.
Then,.. when they get there, then they can keep their uber farmed core players and cut/rebuy the rest for, at that TV, for a very long time.
If you look at teams in C div now with 50+ games and a TV of 1400, there are some pretty brutal teams and for those of us who dont like high TV, there is nothing with a 2000k TV cap that can be done about it. You may as well not have a cap.
What I am saying is that the game is designed for a TV range of 1300-1800 and without the need to pare a team back to 1300, teams become way to heavy and selectively built.
I am not telling people they're "wrong" for how they have their fun, but C div would not be competitive, it would be an spp farming exercise that would eliminate more casual players from being successful.
And hence, League is where people can play with the settings and turn on and off things like Re-Draft.
We already have a pretty diverse range of leagues... I am sure a "Open Play, No Cap, Kill All Menz" league would be quite successful and I would also play it, but for "Competitive Play" I dont think a 2000k redraft suits. |
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