LexusD
Joined: Nov 13, 2021
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 Posted:
Mar 06, 2023 - 17:23 |
 
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I believe Bomber has been banned for season 15 of the D-A-CH Leauge and also a cap placed of one Mega-Star per team. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 06, 2023 - 17:34 |
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Maybe banning him from a league could be a bit drastic. A higher price, such as 100-120k, could make him more balanced, cost/effect-wise.
I'm not against bombers on principle (they perfectly fit the mayhem of BB and they are fun, when not OP), but I'm against underpriced Star Players.
Alternatively, removing Accurate and/or giving Stunty a -1 passing malus, roughly at 80-100k.
About the cap: I'm for a 0-1 Star Player cap, at least for tier 1 and 2 teams.
Not sure about tier 3 teams, they surely need some help but 0-2 Star Players can be exploited by Snotlings. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Mar 06, 2023 - 17:45 |
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Score instead of stalling.
That's how you counter secret weapons. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 06, 2023 - 17:50 |
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Scoring fast is not a valid strategy, because if you score fast the opponent can more easily equalize.
Moreover, not all the races are able to score fast. Dwarfs, for example, struggle to score fast. If they try to score fast they risk to fail the score at all, making things even worse.
Scoring fast vs Bomber most of times doesn't work.
Even more, the opponent could argue the call/use a bribe (I played a game where Bomber was not ejected 3 times, if my memory doesn't fail, this match: https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4419805 ).
So, even scoring fast doesn't guarantee 100% to remove Bomber. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %06, %2023 - %17:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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Carthage
Joined: Mar 18, 2021
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Mar 06, 2023 - 17:55 |
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The only 100% way is to play ogres and buy both cindy and bomber every game so your opponent can't field them 
In my OTB league, Tier 1 and 2 teams can only take each megastar (I added Cindy to the list) once for the season. Tier 3 can take them 3 times each. That way you really have to think if this is the game you NEED bomber or not. Doesn't quite fix it, but at least limits the damage. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Mar 06, 2023 - 17:56 |
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Sorry if I didn't add the obvious. Let me rephrase: "Score as fast as you can".
And imho scoring is a valid strategy. If the opponent is the underdog, you immediately give him -50k tv and -1 player by scoring which can be huge.
Of course, if you have a very slow team then it will take some time. But a) not all teams are slow and b) there's a difference between a t5 score and a t8 one. If you can, go for the former.
On defence, try to be as ruthless as possible. People often don't field Bomber while attacking and keep it for the defensive drive. If the opponent receives the kick and stalls, but you can cause enough damage for him not to have 11 players in your t8, then he will be forced to field the Bomber, and it will be sent off before the second half starts.
Also: this thread was asking for ideas, not for 100% foolproof plans. Of course all ideas can fail. Pointing out that Bomber can roll a 6 on argue is like saying that tacklezones aren't effective because he can roll a 6 on the pass and blow up your cage anywyay. Duh.  |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 06, 2023 - 18:07 |
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As I said, there is no automatic -50k and -1 player if you score as fast as you can.
Argue the call is still possible.
No need to be super slow, even a quite fast team such as Human could fail. Also, if a team is quite fast at scoring, generally is not that much bashy. If you face Orcs or Chaos Dwarfs (which most commonly hire Bomber) then you have to defend for 3 or more turns vs them.
Again, on defence, Orcs are not that squishy and often have 13 players. So, it's not that easy to cause enough damage to force them to field Bomber.
Yes, I didn't say it's a thread for 100% foolproof ideas, just saying that "score instead of stalling" won't work.
Also, putting tackle zones on Bomber, as strategy, can't be compared to scoring fast and then losing ball possession and probably the game 2-1 eventually.
Putting tackle zones on Bomber is less risky than scoring fast (which has some inherent risks) and, on top of that, the risk of giving the ball and the game to the opponent (not to mention the possibility to face Bomber again, if not ejected).
Of course every strategy can fail, the important detail is: how much big can a strategy fail?
A strategy can be "All in" and score fast, for example, another strategy can be: "try to make as hard as you can throwing the bombs at your players and try to minimize the blast damage".
Both can fail, but the first strategy can fail big more easily. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %06, %2023 - %18:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Mar 06, 2023 - 18:11 |
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I respectfully disagree. In my experience, putting tzs on a Bomber (which is usually in a central, defended position) means you will be blitzed, surrounded, and fouled. Which could hurt your team's chances of winning (or escaping unscathed) much worse than Bomber ever could.
The replay you provided earlier is a very good example of this.
But to each his own I guess. You're certainly the top dog around here, at least regarding Bomber use and counter use 
ps: I don't know why you read "score instead of stalling" and immediatly thought "score in a risky way". I am pretty sure nine times out of ten you can score safely by turn 5-6 and stall some more just for strategy purposes. Of course taking a 4+ chance just to score fast is stupid, Bomber or not. I'm not sure why you automatically assumed I was advocating something like that. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 06, 2023 - 18:17 |
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Well, I didn't lose that game, at least (I hope it was the right one, with 3 argued ejections ). Also, some match-up context is required.
Not all match-ups can be described by a single strategic approach.
For example, if I play as Elves (all but DE) I can keep a Thrower as I said ready to pick up the ball and pass it if the main ball carrier is hit by a bomb.
I can't do this as easily with Dwarfs.
Not the top dog, I think yesterday I lost a game I could have tied if I tried to punt the ball away.
Anyway, fair enough that you disagree. I'm not against anybody's ideas, as long as they generate constructive debate about the topic.
P.S. if I play as Dwarfs I could not score on turn 4 even if wanted. I say this because I tried. The cage was busted when I moved along a wide zone.
Sometimes you can't score not because you want to stall, but because you get bombed before turn 5 or 6! You could have to risk due to that kind of pressure
With Elves I think I can handle quite well bombers (passing option, easier disengage, every player is a potential receiver, they can spread around), the problem is with bash teams, whose players need to stick together to be effective and generally don't have a quick score/good pass option. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %06, %2023 - %18:%Mar; edited 5 times in total |
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mekutata
Joined: May 03, 2015
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Mar 06, 2023 - 18:20 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | Score instead of stalling.
That's how you counter secret weapons. |
Psssst or I hate you. Dont tell em. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 06, 2023 - 18:25 |
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Well, if I play as Orcs and you score fast to get Bomber ejected I'm happy.
He has still been useful. |
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Garion26
Joined: Nov 28, 2021
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Mar 06, 2023 - 18:30 |
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I just go with spacing of the team as you have suggested Matt and then blitz either the bomber or the player adjacent to bomber (as it's often protected)
At that point they have to spend their blitz to remove the tacklezone from the Bomber or dodge away (and they can't move and throw a bomb)
I just keep pushing down field and do not wait for the bomber to fail. Double screen so a single bomb doesn't free a hit on the ball (usually) and when I have to push in - go for it hard so the best target for the bomb (my line of bigger blockers) is touching lots of their players.
I think catching the bomb is too rare for non Elf catchers to be worth trying to build for.
If you are playing Chaos Matt you could invest in some disturbing presence players for 20K each it adds some anti bomber tech that makes the matchup potentially easier. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 06, 2023 - 18:33 |
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Bomber is often well protected and surrounded. It's hard for Dwarfs to manage to "lap around" his team mates and hit him.
About Chaos: I won't touch Chaos with a barge pole with BB2020.
If I really wanted to counter him with Disturbing Presence, I would just play Nurgle. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Mar 06, 2023 - 18:33 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | I tried the "hope for failure" strategy (carefully keeping my players spaced 2 squares to minimize blast effect whenever possible), and some games they just don't fail. They fumble, but a rr saves them or they just throw an Inaccurate bomb that still wreaks havoc.
Moreover, if you play carefully and stay away from Bomber, the opponent can just wait patiently before throwing that single effective bomb when you have to move close to him.
The problem of the "hope for failure" strategy is that the pressure of scoring is on you (assuming that Bomber is fielded by opponent on their defensive drive), so the opponent can wait, you can't. Sooner or later you will have to advance and risk a bomb.
A Bomber can be effective just as impending threat. He doesn't have to throw a bomb each and every turn to affect your offensive drive. |
I was being facetious.
They just need banning, they're more egregious than trampoline trap |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Mar 06, 2023 - 18:47 |
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I see, sorry for missing the irony. Either banning or a good nerf, I think. |
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