RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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 Posted:
Apr 25, 2023 - 11:02 |
 
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perhaps the allocation of victory points and/or ratin awards should take these aspects of Tiers 1 vs Tiers 3 into consideration.
Example: If with my goblins I win a hard-earned match against a Dwarf team an extra point for the exceptionality of the event!? |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 25, 2023 - 11:48 |
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The lack of adequate CR-reward is a reason I don't play tier 3 teams, so, I'm for giving a CR bonus to tier 3. Another idea I suggested time ago was pairing in the Box tier 3 teams vs tier 1 and 2 always as 100 TV underdogs, so they could get Inducements every game.
Goblins could have 2 bribes, Halflings could have the Master Chef, Snotlings and Ogres Riotous Rookies + other inducements. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %25, %2023 - %15:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Apr 25, 2023 - 15:40 |
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ok, doing a second tier list, based on a teams rating against the tier 0.5 to 1.5 teams, under the assumption that these are the 'baseline teams' that everyone is expected to be compared against.
The tier definitions are the same as before.
0 goes away in this (no one over 60%), leaving us with
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amazon, underworld as tier 0.5
undead, orcs, chaos dwarf, dwarf as tier 0.75
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human, norse, skaven, necro as tier 1
snotling, khemri, dark elf as tier 1.5
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lizardmen, high elf, pro elf as tier 2
wood elf, chaos, imperial, OWA as tier 2.5
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nurgle, khorne, black orc, pact as tier 3
No one as tier 3.5
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fling, vampire, ogre, goblin as tier 4
Unfortunately a new tier is needed. 3.5 is now 36-38% (no teams are in this tier), and tier 4 is less than 36%.
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Last edited by Nelphine on %b %25, %2023 - %21:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Apr 25, 2023 - 16:24 |
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Since we dont want a tier 4, we want to keep to the well known 'tier 1 is up to ~55%, tier 2 is around 45%, tier 3 is around 35%' i will rejigger the tiers.
Tier 0 (absurdly good): over 59%
- amazon, underworld
Tier 0.5: 55-58% (too good)
- undead, orc
Tier 1 (competitive): 51-54%
- chaos dwarf, dwarf, human, Norse
Tier 1.5: 47-50% (competitive if you know exactly how to play them)
- necromantic, snotling, khemri, dark elf
Tier 2 (challenging): 43-46%
- lizardmen, high elf, pro elf, wood elf, chaos
Tier 2.5: 39-42% (bad)
- nobility, OWA, nurgle, khorne, black orc, pact
Tier 3 (joke): 35-38%
- fling, vampire
Tier 3.5: less than 35% (truly awful)
- ogre, goblin |
Last edited by Nelphine on %b %25, %2023 - %18:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Mingoose
Joined: Jul 28, 2016
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Apr 25, 2023 - 16:35 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | The lack of adequate CR-reward is a reason I don't play tier 3 teams, so, I'm for giving a CR bonus to tier 3. Another idea I suggested time ago was pairing in the Box tier 3 teams vs tier 1 and 2 always as 100 TV underdogs, so they could get Inducements every game.
Goblins could have 2 bribes, Halflings could have the Master Chef, Snotlings and Ogres Rioutous Rookies + other inducements. |
Agree for the most part on CR bonus. If you roll up a dwarf team with your gobbos you shouldn't have a huge CR hit when you lose. But the same could be said for Zons vs dwarf.
If we could link the CR boost/loss to the overall racial win rates it would be perfect.
As for matching up stunties at a CR deficit so they can induce, the real solution is for GW to allow rostered bribes/chef. Fingers crossed that will happen for the Spikes. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 25, 2023 - 16:55 |
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| Mingoose wrote: |
Agree for the most part on CR bonus. If you roll up a dwarf team with your gobbos you shouldn't have a huge CR hit when you lose. But the same could be said for Zons vs dwarf. |
Yes, indeed. About Amazons vs Dwarfs: yes, but there are 2 really bad match-ups for Amazons: Chaos Dwarfs and Dwarfs. In the rest of match-ups Amazons have a reasonable chance to win/tie, unlike tier 3 teams. Most of the tier 3 match-ups are hard.
| Mingoose wrote: |
If we could link the CR boost/loss to the overall racial win rates it would be perfect. |
Yes, a calculation could be made to correlate expected average win chance to CR gained/lost.
| Mingoose wrote: |
As for matching up stunties at a CR deficit so they can induce, the real solution is for GW to allow rostered bribes/chef. |
Yes, I suggested rostered bribes and Chef too some time ago but, since official rules can't be changed, the workaround to have the same effect is creating a TV gap of 100 to allow bribes, Chefs and other inducements.
I hope that one day Goblins and Halflings will have rostered bribes and Chef. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %25, %2023 - %18:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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Apr 25, 2023 - 17:17 |
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I think in this match I should have received double bonus
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=4454375
1) to have won vs Chorfs
2) for have scared my opponent so much that he didn't realise he was going to slaugher me in the second half (despite lack of hobbos) and... he conceded when he was winning!!
never seen this...
Audentes Fortuna Iuvat! 
Gobbos Uber Alle |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 25, 2023 - 18:09 |
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Tackle spam is annoying indeed for Goblins, clearly bad roster design. Chaos Dwarfs and Dwarfs would be playable without Tackle spam with a 10 TV discount each Blocker. |
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Mingoose
Joined: Jul 28, 2016
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Apr 25, 2023 - 19:16 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Tackle spam is annoying indeed for Goblins, clearly bad roster design. Chaos Dwarfs and Dwarfs would be playable without Tackle spam with a 10 TV discount each Blocker. |
I would do this but give the dwarf blitzer tackle for the full 20 TV to prevent overly bloated starting rosters. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 25, 2023 - 19:33 |
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But then when Dwarfs faced teams without Dodge they would be at a big TV disadvantage.
I'd rather no Tackle (or just on either Blitzers or Runners, but no more than 0-2 Tackle players). On Runners it would be better because they don't have Primary S access (so, no Tacklemb) and they are the fastest players (thus better at catching Dodge players). |
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Mingoose
Joined: Jul 28, 2016
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Apr 25, 2023 - 19:48 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | But then when Dwarfs faced teams without Dodge they would be at a massive TV disadvantage.
I'd rather no Tackle (or just on either Blitzers or Runners, but no more than 0-2 Tackle players). On Runners it would be better because they don't have Primary S access (so, no Tacklemb) and they are the fastest players (thus better at catching Dodge players). |
I literally said take tackle away from the blockers and give tackle to the blitzers. If you take 10 TV off the blockers and add 20TV to the bltizers it works out to a lower TV than it is now but doesn't give dwarf teams a 80TV bump from the opening gate.
Putting tackle on the runners would be weird and not fluffy at all. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 25, 2023 - 20:06 |
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Sorry, I missed "Blitzer", reading failure of mine  (got distracted while reading it).
Yes, the important thing is removing the Tackle spam.
0-2 Tacklers would be ok. That way no starting Dwarf roster would have a Tackle spam.
That said, Amazon roster probably should be changed as well, otherwise it could be too good. |
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Mingoose
Joined: Jul 28, 2016
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Apr 25, 2023 - 20:33 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | Sorry, I missed "Blitzer", reading failure of mine (got distracted while reading it).
Yes, the important thing is removing the Tackle spam.
0-2 Tacklers would be ok. That way no starting Dwarf roster would have a Tackle spam.
That said, Amazon roster probably should be changed as well, otherwise it could be too good. |
If we are just asking for roster changes, up the price of zon linewomen to 60, and stop Underworld snotlings from sneaking on the pitch. That should be about right |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 25, 2023 - 20:41 |
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I mean, we should consider the effects of the roster changes on the overall balance, hence the comment about the Amazon roster. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2023 - 21:41 |
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image that i'm using as the basis for my new set of tiers:
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