FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: May 12, 2023 - 13:49

It's up to the opponent to be pissed off or don't. The game allows T16 fouls, blame the rules, not the coaches.
It's not "teaching the right way to enjoy BB", just that you will have less frustration if you don't get attached to your players, because they can die in many ways.
I never said that I want to teach a lesson, just that being fouled on T16 at first pissed me off, then taught me not to care about it.
I can foul just for the sake of it, without trying to teach a lesson. It's up to the coach. He can take that T16 foul as a lesson or just be pissed off by any coach who will T16 foul him. It's better not to care about T16 fouls, if you think of it.

dabassman

Joined: Feb 17, 2006

Posted: May 12, 2023 - 14:36

MattDakka wrote:

[...]you can foul whoever you want without any tactical reason, just for the sake of it. You are not committing a crime.
They are not real living beings, just a bunch of pixels. If the opponent gets pissed off it's his problem.

This perfectly sums up your attitude towards the game.
All this crap about how it's justified by tactical reasons or "roleplaying" - you're not fighting an NPC in a dungeon, you're having a social interaction with another human being.
A human being you dismiss as pixelhugger. Nobody is attached to pixels, it's just that some people enjoy playing with certain players they built, and you are taking away their fun for no other reason than your own enjoyment, adding the little "foul dance" to make it absolutely clear you don't care.
In short:
are T16 fouls allowed by the rules? yes!
are you a poor sport and create a NPE? yes!

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: May 12, 2023 - 15:12

I never said that I foul because I roleplay my team, but for sure some people foul because they roleplay. If I roleplayed I would not call the players "bunch of pixels", right? I do love the BB fantasy setting, but that doesn't mean that I roleplay in game.

So, if I foul a LOS fodder I'm taking away the fun from the people? Wow, people then should not play BB, it's not a fun game for them then.

I enjoy playing with the players I built, yet I don't blame my opponents if they foul them. What should they do? Let them on the pitch without any risk? It would be too easy then. Where is the thrill if I'm sure that my Legend player is safe when lying on the pitch?

I'm whatever you think I am, in the end it's not relevant for purpose of playing BB or being ranked.

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: May 12, 2023 - 16:33

T16 is different. Your post doesnt make sense, nobody said fouls are bad. Fouls are a tactical tool. T16 fouls are not.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: May 12, 2023 - 16:46

T16 fouls can be a tactical tool too, they can make people refrain from placing Stand Firm/Side Step players on LOS or risk to lose them.
T16 fouls are allowed by the rules, that's it.

Also, you wrote this:

JanMattys wrote:

"But against a total stranger, fouling in t16 gets you nothing except the satisfaction of knowing you pissed someone off."

you didn't actually write that T16 fouls are bad, but you used words that seem to suggest they are something negative.
A total stranget could actually like T16 fouls. We can't be sure about that. And in the end, it doesn't matter what he likes, as long as T16 fouls are allowed by the rules. We play by the rules, not by the opponent's opinions about the game actions.

Last edited by MattDakka on %b %12, %2023 - %16:%May; edited 1 time in total

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: May 12, 2023 - 16:55

Oh ffs. FOULS ARE NOT BAD.
Can you tell between â€œfoulsâ€ and â€œt16 foulsâ€???

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: May 12, 2023 - 17:03

You say that fouls (except the T16 fouls) can be a tactical tool

BUT

a T16 foul can be a tactical tool as well

THEREFORE

there is a lack of consistency in what you say.

Either you accept the tactical fouls as valid tools (and then you accept the T16 fouls as well) or you don't accept fouls as valid tools at all.

Make up your mind in a logical way.

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: May 12, 2023 - 17:17

MattDakka wrote:

a T16 foul can be a tactical tool as well

I disagree. There. Problem solved.
It can be a tactical tool only if you want to oneturn and you want the opponent to be too scared to put sidesteppers or standfirmers on los.
But that makes up for a TINY amount of games.

You cannot defend the validity of t16 fouls by only refereing to a very rare occurrence.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: May 12, 2023 - 17:32

I don't need to defend the validity of T16 fouls because I don't have to, they are allowed by the rules. That's enough to make them valid.
I just wanted to point out that, even in a tiny or small (but not so small) amount of games they can be a tactical tool (or strategic, if you play in a league where you could find again that player or you just want to remove a player to weaken that team). Since you seemed to consider fouls valid only when they can achieve a tactical advantage, I pointed out that then you can't dismiss T16 fouls as invalid fouls, in tactical terms.
One turning is quite common, by the way, for sure not a tiny amount of games, especially with multi rr. Not all the teams have a natural one turner, but many teams try to 1TTD.
If you don't like T16 fouls fair enough, but they can be valid tools. A small occurrence is enough to dismiss the absolute statement: "T16 are not tactical tools".
I never said that ALL T16 fouls are valid tools, but they can be valid tools as well.

NauticalSoup

Joined: Apr 10, 2023

Posted: May 13, 2023 - 01:14

moph wrote:

And game design wise I think you should receive a 10k bonus for every kill. That should end the question if to foul or not to foul.

That's actually a great idea.

I think the core reason people get upset about a T16 foul is that it's a breach of some kind of unwritten rule, or a breach of etiquette - you're doing something to me that I wouldn't do to you.

If everyone in the game is mechanically incentivized to T16 foul even the tiniest bit the debate ceases to exist, and if you still get salty about being fouled then you need to develop thicker skin :p

Waiting4Mish

Joined: Jun 13, 2022

Posted: May 13, 2023 - 01:17

Meanwhile in an alternate universe, Matt Dakka:
"Last time I played as Goblins my opponent spent the rest of the game, clearly lost, by fouling my players and wasting even more time. I swore not to repeat that time waste again.
While on TT it can be fun because you play vs a close friend, it's not as fun vs online opponents.
Not because I don't like the fouls, but because to set up them he spent some extra time. Which is legal, I don't complain about the fouls, but I can't stand the time wastes.
Here's the game, so you can see I didn't invent a story:
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=3987435"

Notice how he's actually upset at a turn 16 foul

moph

Joined: Sep 16, 2020

Posted: May 13, 2023 - 04:23

NauticalSoup wrote:

moph wrote:

And game design wise I think you should receive a 10k bonus for every kill. That should end the question if to foul or not to foul.

That's actually a great idea.

Thanks.
Another idea for a house rule, which aims in the other direction, i.e. to prevent t16 fouls, would be to suspend players who are caught fouling t16 for the next game.
(There could even be something like the injury roll for getting caught fouling, not only on t16, with different outcomes: ranging from getting suspended for the drive, the game, the next game or the player not being allowed to play ever again.)

Faulcon

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: May 13, 2023 - 04:55

T16 fouls are not right or wrong. There's no hard rule on when they should or shouldn't be allowed, trying to make one is an exercise in futility that will do nothing more than produce great big threads on the forums.

I had a game with ogres where they were destroyed by dwarves who chose to try and t16 blitz one of my few remaining gnoblars with a blocker. Snaked the gfi and fell at his feet. Did I t16 foul that blocker? You bet I did. Risk/reward, actions have consequences.

Meanwhile as far as I'm concerned if you foul me first at any point in the game for tactical or non tactical reasons you've started the ground war and I feel completely validated in responding at any point in the game including t16. If you don't want to be fouled, don't foul. And I also fully accept that going the other way. If I foul the other team then I'm not going to be upset when they foul back.

That said I pretty much exclusively play league these days which is completely different because it's not tv matched and it's highly likely I'll be seeing that team again soon.

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: May 13, 2023 - 09:20

NauticalSoup wrote:

moph wrote:

And game design wise I think you should receive a 10k bonus for every kill. That should end the question if to foul or not to foul.

That's actually a great idea.

I think the core reason people get upset about a T16 foul is that it's a breach of some kind of unwritten rule, or a breach of etiquette - you're doing something to me that I wouldn't do to you.

If everyone in the game is mechanically incentivized to T16 foul even the tiniest bit the debate ceases to exist, and if you still get salty about being fouled then you need to develop thicker skin :p

I agree.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: May 13, 2023 - 11:20

Waiting4Mish wrote:

Meanwhile in an alternate universe, Matt Dakka:
"Last time I played as Goblins my opponent spent the rest of the game, clearly lost, by fouling my players and wasting even more time. I swore not to repeat that time waste again.
While on TT it can be fun because you play vs a close friend, it's not as fun vs online opponents.
Not because I don't like the fouls, but because to set up them he spent some extra time. Which is legal, I don't complain about the fouls, but I can't stand the time wastes.
Here's the game, so you can see I didn't invent a story:
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=3987435"

Notice how he's actually upset at a turn 16 foul

It's possible that it was another game or that my memory genuinely failed, sorry. If I wanted to lie I would not post the link. It was a game played 5 years ago. Anyway, regardless of fouling, the point is that playing as Goblins can easily turn a match into a waste of time (with or without them being fouled by the opponent).