| Poll |
| Season Redraft: |
| It is a Must. Should strictly follows BB2020 User Manual rules (15 games sharp etc..,) |
|
26% |
[ 34 ] |
| It is a Must. But not strictly following BB2020 Manual (f.i : after more than 15 games and/or different redraft rules... ) |
|
23% |
[ 30 ] |
| It is nice to have and can be implemented in several way. I am flexible. |
|
23% |
[ 31 ] |
| I don't like it, but I will accept to be done with one of the previous option |
|
5% |
[ 7 ] |
| I don't like at all and I think should NEVER be implemented in FUMBBL! |
|
12% |
[ 16 ] |
| Pie! |
|
9% |
[ 12 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 130 |
|
koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
|
 Posted:
May 17, 2023 - 14:10 |
 
|
|
MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
|
| Posted:
May 17, 2023 - 14:14 |
|
According to Christer, there is no huge average TV difference between teams with 12 games and 15 games. It's between 1360 and 1390 TV, 30 TV, if I understood correctly:
| Christer wrote: |
I remain confident that 15 games is a good breakpoint for seasons and don't think 12 would be better. It's a 1.36M to 1.39M difference on average according to the stats. |
30 TV difference should not be a tragedy for people wanting to play with bigger teams.
About BBT including 2+ Season teams: with 12-game Season there would be lower TV gaps in case teams were kept and carried from a BBT Season to the next one.
It's better to have a Season Re-Draft more often. |
|
|
RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
|
| Posted:
May 17, 2023 - 15:16 |
|
I have sketched the TV evolution of a Tiers3 team (Goblin)
I have taken matches from a dozen of top 20 players on the overall coach ranking:
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coaches&order=&type=overall&r=4962
(I skipped some with very few matches and included others)
Is difficult to find coaches who has enough hair on their chest to play Goblins for more than 15 games, but there are some 'brave captains' who do 
The average is calculated on a more significant sample for number of matches less than 10 (21 teams divided into 12 coaches);
whereas for number of matches greater than 10 I had to reduce the number of coaches for the average.
As soon as I have time I will try to pull down a similar statistic for Vampires and Khorne who are the ones being used the most in BT8 right now as a 0-budget team just to give a window for Tiers3 teams.
So if with the redraft will be also applied a hard TV cap of 1300 this should not change a lot the life for Goblins (which will have anyway a hard life!  )
it is a very crude statistic and done in 10 minutes so take it for what it is it does not pretend to be a representation with a very high statistical value |
|
|
The_Great_Gobbo
Joined: Aug 04, 2014
|
| Posted:
May 17, 2023 - 15:53 |
|
Any chance of a commishunerz exempt list fer small green coaches oo run sub optimul teems? Askin fer a frend. |
|
|
Garion26
Joined: Nov 28, 2021
|
| Posted:
May 17, 2023 - 17:45 |
|
| MattDakka wrote: | Although it's true that an Orc Blitzer or Dwarf Runner is easier to injure/kill without Dodge (or Blodge), with AV 10+ or AV 9+ and considering they don't suffer many blocks in a game, is not unreasonable to think that they will still be durable enough to have an impact on the games played by their team.
+MA, +MA is possible with Re-Draft. With old rules stat boost required some luck, with BB2020 rules you have a guaranteed stat boost, with enough SPPs.
The concept of minmax lies in having as many skills/stats as you can at the lowest possible TV.
That is often related to playing with very few rrs or 0 rrs, no Apo, Leader, synergic skills, skills stacked on positional players, no skills on linemen, etc.
It features very commonly a stat freak ball carrier and/or a killer, but a team can be considered minmaxed even without a Legend player.
A team with 0 rrs, no Apo and Leader is a minmaxed one, with or without a Legend player. |
Agree with Matt on the point that +MA x 2 ball carriers are a low TV cost very high game impact player particularly on slow bash teams. They are only possible really in an eternal online matchmaking environment. The BB 2020 rules set wasn't built around a world where 40-100 games with an unredrafted team is going to happen and also wasn't built with the assumption of a TV based matchmaker.
While I voted intermediate after reading the thread I'm even more in favor of a hard redraft. You can build that + stat freak but its going to cost you more to keep them - and the cost gets bigger the longer you keep them.
A TV cap just gets gamed because you then keep your under costed move stat players and your key killers/slow to level blockers and drop the nice to have but not necessary levels holding your TV potentially near permanently at our below the cap. |
|
|
MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
|
| Posted:
May 17, 2023 - 17:51 |
|
If you put a TV cap at 1400 TV is hard to have a super freak and a good team to support him as well.
The hard TV cap can be put at 1400 or 1500, not necessarily at 1600.
Hard to game the TV cap, if it's not too high.
Moreover, while a Season Re-Draft keeps the teams in check every X games, a hard TV cap keeps the TV in check every game, game by game. With Re-Draft a 14-game 1600 TV team could face an 8-game old team at TV 1300. With a hard TV cap set at 1400 you are sure that in the worst scenario you will face a 1400 team. It's way different. Also, teams such as Vampires don't cope well with having to fire their built (or not) Vampires just because they have played for 15 games. Vampires, for example, would benefit a lot from a hard TV cap.
That said, we will have the Re-Draft. My suggestion about a hard TV cap is just to explain why I don't like the Re-Draft as a way to keep the teams in check and providing my own alternative way.
Also, stats should be capped at max +1 per each characteristic, if we don't want to see stat freaks. If we want to go further, decrease the skill slots each player can have from 6 to 5 or 4.
Season Re-Draft doesn't prevent stat freaks. It can just make them last fewer games (unless you play with a super short Season, but then don't expect people will bother playing tier 2 teams). |
|
|
The_Great_Gobbo
Joined: Aug 04, 2014
|
| Posted:
May 17, 2023 - 18:54 |
|
Does yew av any idea ow ard it iz ter build an all gobbo teem? In 15 gamez we kan build nuffin, an it ent like we ent squishy either. It az tekken me 85 gamez ter get ter 1800ish tv wiv der Tide which iz WAY overpriced wen yew lookz at der teem an now I az ter rebuild every 15 gamez? I iz finkin why bovver. I wantz ter build a legendary teem an now der site iz tellin me no way Jose. Yes it meks der game moar kompetitive fer peeple oo kare but it will kill all der fluff an stoopidity which az alwayz bin a part o der sport. Dis I fink iz sad an bad. |
|
|
RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
|
| Posted:
May 17, 2023 - 20:12 |
|
Goblin are complicated.
Great honour to all the brave coaches who dare to use them! I would give to them a supplementary prize in kgold during the redraft!  |
|
|
Garion26
Joined: Nov 28, 2021
|
| Posted:
May 17, 2023 - 21:38 |
|
| MattDakka wrote: | If you put a TV cap at 1400 TV is hard to have a super freak and a good team to support him as well.
The hard TV cap can be put at 1400 or 1500, not necessarily at 1600. . |
Matt plenty (arguably possibly most) teams are at their peak of effectiveness around TV 1300-1500
Lots of tier 1 teams with 10 skills (TV 1200) or 20 skills (TV 1400) are going to be near perfect particularly against other low-mid TV teams.
Make 40 TV of that + 2 MA on a ball carrier doesn't really impact the rest of the TV allocation to build a supporting team.
How many skills do you really need on linemen and non ball carriers? 1 on some but not all linemen for most teams, and 2-3 on most positionals. More is nice but after block/wrestle/guard/dodge/mighty blow/tackle (and most players take 2 of those) there isn't much more you need to make a good player. A fouler might get 1-2 skills to be perfect. Line fodder 1-2 at most. |
|
|
MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
|
| Posted:
May 17, 2023 - 22:08 |
|
The hard TV cap could be 1300. Still, the idea is better than letting a team grow higher than 1300 and, after 15 games, bring it down with a Season Re-Draft.
Also, we should be specific about the race. Dwarfs, for example, really need to have Guard spam, that means at least 1 skill on most players. Elves can be fine with a stat freak + some supporting Linemen.
By the way, I agree that +MA is underpriced, I would increase its cost and cap it at max +1. That means that there would be no +2 MA players in my rules. Max +1 stat boost per characteristic.
Also, a thing you should consider is, assuming that a team reaches 1300 TV, it will not be forever at 1300 TV. Players can die/get injured and random MVP means that it's harder to focus the SPPs on the players you want to skill up. |
|
|
Klunker
Joined: Apr 02, 2021
|
| Posted:
May 17, 2023 - 23:51 |
|
While there’s a lively debate going on about details (12 vs. 15 games, hard vs. soft cap, etc.) I think we‘re missing the point:
Any type of seasons will favor Tier 1 teams, eternally. It would render a dozen races uncompetitive.
I don’t think this is in the spirit of the game, but of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
But if this truly the consensus, I‘ll just play dorfs. Duh. |
|
|
PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
|
| Posted:
May 17, 2023 - 23:57 |
|
This is just MO on the subject.
So I have been running the rebooted Buccaneers and we are on Season #3 now. I have manually redrafted at the end of game 15 and 30. What I have found is that my team peaks in the mid 1750 TV range, now, I do like running with 15-16 players before each redraft.
couple of things I will point out.
#1 Once the Buccaneers hit around 1600 TV it becomes very hard to get games in the BOX. Now I think this is just the current meta going on with the scheduler.
#2 Granted the Buccaneers are a human team but player turnover is a issue. That does keep the TV in check.
#3 It seems to me that the current "open" game format found in C is heavily leaning towards box trophy style play. That is not bad at all. It has changed the dynamic found in C that was never there in years past.
#4 merging of Box and Pick was the best thing to ever happen on FUMBBL when it comes to C play.
#5 IF/When redraft finally arrives I do think it will cement in place the idea that C play will be mainly Box sprints and most games will most likely come through the scheduler. Guys like me who like playing legacy type teams will just keep plugging along and nothing really will change.
#6 DO NOT ENABLE AGENT FEES on redraft. Just do the hard 1350 TV reset and off we go. Agent fees are great at your local TT league but kill off the idea that you can make legend players and keep them. I DONT LIKE THAT. C play is the place where legends are made and born. Dont kill them off.
#7 15 game redraft is fine. Dont make it shorter and will be the one who suggests 20 game redraft in C.
Thats it |
_________________
Comish of the:  |
|
RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
|
| Posted:
May 18, 2023 - 08:57 |
|
| Klunker wrote: | While there’s a lively debate going on about details (12 vs. 15 games, hard vs. soft cap, etc.) I think we‘re missing the point:
Any type of seasons will favor Tier 1 teams, eternally. It would render a dozen races uncompetitive.
I don’t think this is in the spirit of the game, but of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
But if this truly the consensus, I‘ll just play dorfs. Duh. |
why do you think this? if you introduce agent fee and maybe hard cap this will oblige some tiers1 team maybe to trow away some very skilled players and teams who progress faster and reach higher TV are tiers1.
Tiers3 TV is slower as goblin for instance they rarely go higher 1200 after 15 games.
and Vampires with block abd 1 pro maybe could start performing little bit more….
Khorne I agree they can have problems but they can perform better with some block spreads and 1 SH ballkeeper…. Not sure if a Khorne team high tv will perfirm better than medium low TV….
this point you raise is critical because if redraft will make tiers1 still more stronger this means we will see more often in blackbox (except Trophy) still a vague of Tiers1 mono activations (what a boring stuff….) and goal to design a good redraft IMHO should be also the one to incentive little bit more the usage of more teams than only tiers1…..
good point anyway |
|
|
Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
|
| Posted:
May 18, 2023 - 13:27 |
|
Redraft, due to agent fees, will heavily favor teams which can redraft onlyv1 or 2 players - you'll redraft a legend ball carrier, and a legend killer. The rest of the team will be rookies. This will heavily favor teams who have strong rookies - which are the tier 1 teams. |
|
|
PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
|
| Klunker wrote: | Any type of seasons will favor Tier 1 teams, eternally. It would render a dozen races uncompetitive.
I don’t think this is in the spirit of the game, but of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
But if this truly the consensus, I‘ll just play dorfs. Duh. |
Will it though?
I don't know. You don't know. Theory bowl only takes us so far here. Until the nasty minds of BB coaches start solving the problem for real, we can't be sure.
I can make a case that certain teams will peak ONLY due to redrafts. Necromantic for example will buy their expensive positionals in season 1, then redraft, drop all the trash and only rebuy wights and wolves, i would guess. maybe a Golem or two, and will start season 2 with nicely developed key pieces and the wall of cheap trash they enjoy.
Flatter developed teams may struggle, dorfs need a wall of guard, with each guard costing 20k agents fees, despite dwarf seeming good value, they will be hurt by having a wall of guardless beards and coaches will try to find ways around that.
I do think dwarves will be fine in redraft (but struggle as the season number creeps up), and i do think some races will suffer (Nurgle are hosed). But i think until we see 300 coaches trying their hardest to find the value, we are just making noises based on guesses. informed guesses for sure, but if its broken, we can fix it.
If 15 doesnt work, there is an easy change to make, try 12, or 8, or 20.
As to 'it isnt in the spirit of the game', is their an emptier, more malleable concept? Whose spirit? defined where? Jervis? GW? The Rulebook? Christer? You? Me? The silent majority? Vishnu's? The ever changing concept of fair BB in MattDakkas fevered mind? |
_________________
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intelligor illis -Ovid
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone |
|
|
|
| |
Gnome Roster - how a...
Search
