FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

HimalayaP1C7

Joined: Feb 03, 2021

Posted: Jun 28, 2023 - 12:27

It seems quite a few people would like the streamer to make the opponent aware that theyâ€™re streaming, either before or after the game. I think this is not a fair expectation. There seems to me to be plenty of signs that some people will react negatively to the news that theyâ€™re streaming, what is the streamer supposed to do then? Couple this with the fact that streaming is totally within the rules and encouraged, I donâ€™t see why streamers should have any expectation put on them beyond what any other player would.

koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: Jun 28, 2023 - 13:01

Streamers can do whatever they like that is within the rules.

People's opinions were asked for. They're expressing them.

_________________

O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed

remetagross

Joined: Mar 09, 2023

Posted: Jun 28, 2023 - 13:13

HimalayaP1C7 wrote:

It seems quite a few people would like the streamer to make the opponent aware that theyâ€™re streaming, either before or after the game. I think this is not a fair expectation. There seems to me to be plenty of signs that some people will react negatively to the news that theyâ€™re streaming, what is the streamer supposed to do then? Couple this with the fact that streaming is totally within the rules and encouraged, I donâ€™t see why streamers should have any expectation put on them beyond what any other player would.

They don't. But I'm now asking at the start of each game if this is going to be streamed. They juste have the expectation to be honest in their answer, as is every user out there.

RDaneel

Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Posted: Jun 28, 2023 - 13:20

the point in my opinion as I was saying in discord is that there are people on fummbl of different generations from 20 years to 50 years or more, and culture.
there are coaches who have been on fumbbl for 20 years and others for only a few months . And lately s.o tell me (because I have never played on BB2 or BB3) that there is a big migration of coaches who come from BB2/3 and often are "younger" and used to interacting in more modern way (both socially, communicatively and in terms of game tactics).
In my opinion we need to understand this: the Fumbbl community in recent months is increasing its user base exponentially (good for Fumbbl!) but let's all be a little more tolerant of each other's needs.
I can understand that streamers do not like to advertise their channel. However, it is easy to figure out who is streaming (there is a fumbbl channel on twitchTV and also on Discord that indicates current or recorded games).
On the timeout, we have talked about it plenty. Fifty percent think it's OK to do it right away (and a lot of those are from the BB2/BB3 world). The others that it should at least be warned or even never done. but we have already written rivers of ink about this no need to restart again

HimalayaP1C7

Joined: Feb 03, 2021

Posted: Jun 28, 2023 - 13:50

remetagross wrote:

But I'm now asking at the start of each game if this is going to be streamed.

You can save yourself and your opponent a bit of time by just checking the FUMBBL category on twitch, there will rarely be more than 1 or 2 streamers active, very often 0.
https://m.twitch.tv/directory/game/FUMBBL%20Fantasy%20Football

Verminardo

Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Posted: Jun 28, 2023 - 14:17

I keep coming back to the point that Fumbbl is an online game to some, a board game played remotely to others. In the vodcast PurpleChest tells of the old days when people would hang out in IRC and had to actually chat with each other in order to schedule games. I'm on Fumbbl long enough to remember those times, but back then I mostly played in private leagues and played only very few Ranked games. Frankly, the old system was terrible. The introduction of gamefinder and blackbox, to me, have been major improvements and I don't think I'd have stuck around and started playing competitively without them.

Fumbbl can be both an online game and a board game played remotely, but for the ranked divisions, since the introduction of gamefinder and blackbox, and in particular since the introduction of blackbox trophy, it has embraced being an online game. The one step it so far hasn't taken is auto timeout, which is an ongoing source of confusion over the matter. But people who know Blood Bowl only as an online game, when they come to Fumbbl to play Blood Bowl, assume Fumbbl is an online game, and treat it as such. It's unreasonable to expect anything different from them.

Is this good or bad for Fumbbl? Well, it's keeping [C] alive, so unless you think Fumbbl doesn't need [C] anyway, then yes, it's good.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jun 28, 2023 - 15:56

Verminardo wrote:

I'm on Fumbbl long enough to remember those times, but back then I mostly played in private leagues and played only very few Ranked games.

I remember not just IRC, but PMs used to arrange games as well (so time consuming!), I remember having to manually upload the games and having to resume them by reloading them manually (sometimes the double ball bug occurred, back in those days).
Now the whole process is way quicker and more user-friendly.
Probably it's still slow for younger people, but for old timers' standards it improved a lot.

Mingoose

Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Posted: Jun 29, 2023 - 06:29

HimalayaP1C7 wrote:

There seems to me to be plenty of signs that some people will react negatively to the news that theyâ€™re streaming, what is the streamer supposed to do then?

Not stream?

Why must I be commoditized by some sweaty neckbeard that thinks making $10k a year on streaming is "supporting themselves"? Get a real job, like we all are supposedly doing while we play blood bowl. You streamers never know when your mum is going to start charging you rent!

Seriously though, this is like when Europeans come to America and insist on not tipping. "Well my personal philosophy is that you should charge me more instead of insisting on a tip". Streamers come in here and say "well my personal philosophy is that my turn is over once 4 minutes is up". Its a load of garbage in both cases. People are politely asking you for a couple very low effort courtesies. You may burn 9 of the 5500 calories you consume per day typing out "hey FYI I'm streaming this, and long games make a really bad stream so I do use the time out button. Good luck!" You can reduce that to 4 calories by copying and pasting that line from my post. But you won't, because you are selfish. You stream because you are monetizing someone else's activity, and you hit the time out button because you want an advantage. Both actions are anti social.

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Jun 29, 2023 - 08:01

Verminardo wrote:

I keep coming back to the point that Fumbbl is an online game to some, a board game played remotely to others. In the vodcast PurpleChest tells of the old days when people would hang out in IRC and had to actually chat with each other in order to schedule games. I'm on Fumbbl long enough to remember those times, but back then I mostly played in private leagues and played only very few Ranked games. Frankly, the old system was terrible. The introduction of gamefinder and blackbox, to me, have been major improvements and I don't think I'd have stuck around and started playing competitively without them.

Fumbbl can be both an online game and a board game played remotely, but for the ranked divisions, since the introduction of gamefinder and blackbox, and in particular since the introduction of blackbox trophy, it has embraced being an online game. The one step it so far hasn't taken is auto timeout, which is an ongoing source of confusion over the matter. But people who know Blood Bowl only as an online game, when they come to Fumbbl to play Blood Bowl, assume Fumbbl is an online game, and treat it as such. It's unreasonable to expect anything different from them.

Is this good or bad for Fumbbl? Well, it's keeping [C] alive, so unless you think Fumbbl doesn't need [C] anyway, then yes, it's good.

I don't disagree. However, Fumbbl numbers, while high, have seen a huge drop since 2008 with an occasional spike in 2020 due to covid. We are talking about an average of a little more than 200 games per day. Around 120 of those are in [C].

The number of coaches who logged in in the last week is under 2k, and the number of coaches who played a game in the last week is under 1k.

We, as a community, are much much smaller than the BB community as a general movement. Keeping the idea that Fumbbl is an awesome online version of a Board Game is important because in my opinion that's both the only way we can have a growth and the only way we can keep from diverging and becoming our own thing.

If we become our own thing, I'm not sure we have the strenght to survive in the long run.

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mekutata

Joined: May 03, 2015

Posted: Jun 29, 2023 - 08:47

So if I have an AI bot that can play decent bb (but probably always needs 4 minutes), and is also connected to chatgpt and able to trash talk to a twitch community... is it allowed to play bb and I can stream it?
I think if I'd design a minor looking girl in anime style as avatar I could make huge money that way.

Second question, if a streamer earns money by playing... shouldn't they pay part of that money to their opponent?

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RDaneel

Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Posted: Jun 29, 2023 - 09:31

JanMattys wrote:

If we become our own thing, I'm not sure we have the strenght to survive in the long run.

I did not quite understand the meaning of this sentence. Do you mean that if fumbbl remains too closed a community it will not survive? In this sense then the increase in the number of users (thanks also to the fact that BB3 seems to have several flaws) is a good thing (and thus also the streaming).

Verminardo

Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Posted: Jun 29, 2023 - 10:15

Mingoose wrote:

Why must I be commoditized

I am myself uncomfortable with the way that influencers commoditise their private lives. And in the end streamers are influencers. I am even more uncomfortable if they draw their friends and family into it, which is more frequent on TicToc or Insta than on Twitch. It's a bit of an anticapitalist sentiment but I think it's very justified.

With online gaming though, I'd argue it's not really personal. Again, Fumbbl's peculiar inbetween nature is the source of disagreement. If you're playing CS or LoL, there's a really big and anonymous mass of players. You hardly ever play anyone more than once (unless you're super high elo), so there is really nothing private or personal about it. Hence I'd argue that streamers really only commoditise themselves with these games, not their opponents, who are completely interchangeable.

On the other hand, if you sit down with your mate over a couple of pints to admire each others' painting skills, cheer for double skulls, and talk trash about your other mates in the league, while playing a bit of Blood Bowl, then it's an entirely different story. And indeed if your mate was streaming, it would completely change the interaction.

Fumbbl is somewhere in between, and to make things more complicated, where it falls on the curve depends on the perspective you're looking from.

Verminardo

Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Posted: Jun 29, 2023 - 10:33

JanMattys wrote:

We, as a community, are much much smaller than the BB community as a general movement. Keeping the idea that Fumbbl is an awesome online version of a Board Game is important because in my opinion that's both the only way we can have a growth and the only way we can keep from diverging and becoming our own thing.

Exactly. Fumbbl is both, and needs to be both, but sometimes they will conflict. Which is what we've got here. I'm not saying that the old guard are unjustified in feeling uncomfortable. But neither are the new guard unjustified. So playing the blame game is silly. There is no moral imperative here. There is just the question of whether you want to be nice to other people and considerate of their sentiments, or not. And to keep things in perspective, really most coaches on Fumbbl are very nice to each other.

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Jun 29, 2023 - 10:44

Absolutely

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koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: Jun 29, 2023 - 11:36

JanMattys wrote:

We, as a community, are much much smaller than the BB community as a general movement. Keeping the idea that Fumbbl is an awesome online version of a Board Game is important because in my opinion that's both the only way we can have a growth and the only way we can keep from diverging and becoming our own thing.

If we become our own thing, I'm not sure we have the strenght to survive in the long run.

I don't quite understand what you mean by "diverging and becoming our own thing".

By asking to be informed if someone is streaming?

_________________

O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed