Carthage
Joined: Mar 18, 2021
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 Posted:
Oct 11, 2023 - 21:09 |
 
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Imo the 2 rosters that make the most sense
1 varg
1 runner
2 thrower (you could do 1 thrower, 2 runners but its more fragile)
7 thrall
4 rerolls
1 varg
2 runner
1 thrower
9 thrall
3 rerolls
If you are in a kill heavy league or resurrection format you can probably drop a reroll in the first list for apothecary to keep a KO or BH in the game.
If you hate big guys, you can probably swap the varg for a blitzer, but I'm not sure why you would, this is probably the most reliable big guy in the game and he has a great growth path. Not sure if people missed but you can also voluntarily choose not to bite a thrall even if you end your turn next to one while bloodlusting. If you do the right order, the ending turn part doesn't matter, its really just the bonehead, but you already did your activation so you should have still gotten some value. |
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Decksign
Joined: Mar 25, 2016
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Oct 11, 2023 - 22:47 |
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For your initial team, 1 in 9 on blocks suck, they're just a pain, the blitzer reduces the threat of such a thing happening which is a little bit a stability.
Also the blitzer can be turned into a super ball sacker, starting off with juggernaut can get strip ball very fast, whereas other players would need a secondary to get juggernaut into strip ball.
Lastly juggernaut itself is very useful to push opponents away from key squares, like away from the ball carrier.
I wouldn't get a 2nd blitzer too fast though, probably in higher TV play, something like 1500+ TV
EDIT: Carthage, block and juggernaut do synergize when you want to knock wrestlers down. Although it's a minor synergy. |
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Carthage
Joined: Mar 18, 2021
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Oct 12, 2023 - 04:38 |
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So I agree about the 1/9 but if you do the blitz last, its less bad.
The strip ball combo is nice at low TV, and I guess itll work with hypnogaze at higher TV for a nearly guaranteed pop. Seems like an OK build plan. Not sure I like that enough to justify it over the varg, but its a good point.
The latter part doesn't really apply to vamps since gaze can open up that hole already. Not to mention, since we are talking about taking skills, the Varg can get juggernaut generally faster than the blitzer will get a skill based off cas's since the varg will get more pows per blitz on average and claws will lead to more armor breaks (unless you feed the blitzer a TD, which is pretty unreliable with the BL3+)
So I don't think that sways me into taking it until like the 1500 range you are talking about getting a second. Its a better generalist than the varg but a worse control piece and its a better control piece than the thrower, but a worse generalist.
Appreciate the points though, the more i thought about the juggernaut strip ball the more I liked it. At first I didn't think it was worth anything since you could just gaze the target then hit it, but gaze turning off sure hands is pretty relevant over 1100 TV. |
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Bebop2Hands
Joined: Jun 27, 2023
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Oct 12, 2023 - 10:10 |
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I like the juggernaut + strip ball + gaze (against sure hands) combo.
What do you think about a blitzer with juggernaut + frenzy? With MA6 (instead of 5 with the varg), it could allow for more crowd pushes and thus making the sidelines a danger zone for enemies |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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Oct 12, 2023 - 12:43 |
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| Bebop2Hands wrote: | I like the juggernaut + strip ball + gaze (against sure hands) combo.
What do you think about a blitzer with juggernaut + frenzy? With MA6 (instead of 5 with the varg), it could allow for more crowd pushes and thus making the sidelines a danger zone for enemies |
Juggernaut + Frenzy is nice combo...
but perhaps more usefull for teams that strategically seek the surfing (like the Khorne)
The thing that makes me hesitant about the new Vampire Blitzer is the Bloodlust 3+ .
Eventually it forces you to play in such a way that almost all blitzes must be done with this player and at the last action of your turn. I don't know. It doesn't convince me much.
And I have the impressions many coach keep this player out of their roster... but i admit my knowledge is limited. |
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El_Jairo
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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Oct 12, 2023 - 13:08 |
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| Carthage wrote: | MA9 on the runner, besides giving the option for a 1 turn score on turn 8/16 also means that any hole you create with gaze or blitzes gets maximally exploited, all it takes is getting the ball barely pass the line of scrimmage (pretty easy with Ag2, PA2 throwers) then they can score. And since they're your dedicated scorers, you can get it in just a few games.
Also, can someone explain the appeal of the blitzer to me? All I see is just a worse thrower, not sure why you'd ever want to take it over the thrower or a vargeist unless you are in a 1000TV tournament with no skill buys?
Thrower has all the same stats and skill access as the blitzer, but with also passing, PA2+ and 16% better negatrait. And all the blitzer has is Juggernaut to offset that. And the first skill you want on those pieces is block anyways which doesn't synergize with Juggernaut.
The Vargeist is a much better blitzer a majority of the time. Typically the blitz should be one of the last actions you take in a turn, especially on vampires that can use hypno gaze to set up a better blitz. That means the better anti-turnover of juggernaut vs the varg's loner is a lot less relevant. S5 frenzy is going to result in a lot more knockdowns than ST4 juggernaut. The varg is also better in a brawl at S5, AV10 and claw. So I don't really agree with the blitzer being a better blitzer than the vargeist.
Not saying you never ever take the blitzer, i think once the team is skilled up a good amount with pro, blodge, etc you probably should take them, but I don't see their appeal at low TV. |
So the first part of your answer: MA9 means the runner is like a ST boosted Gutterrunner, of course this is great. But I rather have Dodge first on her, because of general application and I just feel that Block or Pro bring more general functionality to the table. MA amplifies the range of all the good skills and traits this player has, so I see it rather useful later, after Blodge-Pro, but I'm not against trying this out.
Only needing 2 pushes for a OTT is quite powerful indeed.
On the discussion about why I want a Blitzer: first off, it hasn't Loner (4+) which is a huge factor in reliability. As you said, with the Vargheist, you typically want to use him at the very end of your turn. Yet more often than not, you want to blitz quite early in the turn if you want to attack the ball and recuperate it.
Secondly, the Blitzer exchanges Primary Passing access to Strength access. Which is still one of the most powerful Skill tables out there. I have seen successful coaches op for MB first on the Blitzer, to speed up his progression, which is fair, but only if you are a top coach who has a very solid turn ordering, TRR management and much of experience.
Thirdly, I would like to develop one of my blitzers into a Block-Guard, Dodge anker, so he can bolster the Thralls, have them block first and then he can redeploy where needed or throw a block himself if his marking players weren't knocked over.
I know that historically the Strength skills were not so popular with the old Vampires, although they all six got GAS access. I feel now with the Vargheist, the Vampires can fight back a little better. Also the new BL not eliminating any Vampires from the pitch, means that you can risk blocks at the end of your turn, if you can afford to not mark that player. So you can be a bit more adventurous on the blocking game.
Fourth, the juggernaut skill is there to make the blitz more reliable in the early development, later it's the perfect answer vs Stand Firm trying to ruin you OTT, but you should pick Frenzy, as we need 2 pushes if we want to score with MA9 runner.
And it does combine very well with Strip Ball, eliminating the need for Wrestle, together with block it even hard counters Wrestle.
So yes straight out of the gate the BL (3+) is a downside and the upside is limited. But because I want to start developing this player ASAP, I'm willing to try a little less powerful starting roster, to develop into a stronger roster quicker. If you wait until most of your Vampires have two skills, your are looking at mid-TV teams, where a rookie blitzer isn't going to bring much to the table. |
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By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249 |
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El_Jairo
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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Oct 12, 2023 - 13:12 |
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| Carthage wrote: | ...
The latter part doesn't really apply to vamps since gaze can open up that hole already. Not to mention, since we are talking about taking skills, the Varg can get juggernaut generally faster than the blitzer will get a skill based off cas's since the varg will get more pows per blitz on average and claws will lead to more armor breaks (unless you feed the blitzer a TD, which is pretty unreliable with the BL3+)
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Don't forget that the Blitzer is still AG 2+ and you can declare a blitz with him, if you just want to walk in the TD. They are a lot easier to level than the Vargheist, albeit a lot less than the Thrower. |
_________________
By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249 |
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El_Jairo
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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Oct 12, 2023 - 13:17 |
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| RDaneel wrote: | | Bebop2Hands wrote: | I like the juggernaut + strip ball + gaze (against sure hands) combo.
What do you think about a blitzer with juggernaut + frenzy? With MA6 (instead of 5 with the varg), it could allow for more crowd pushes and thus making the sidelines a danger zone for enemies |
Juggernaut + Frenzy is nice combo...
but perhaps more usefull for teams that strategically seek the surfing (like the Khorne)
The thing that makes me hesitant about the new Vampire Blitzer is the Bloodlust 3+ .
Eventually it forces you to play in such a way that almost all blitzes must be done with this player and at the last action of your turn. I don't know. It doesn't convince me much.
And I have the impressions many coach keep this player out of their roster... but i admit my knowledge is limited. |
The BL(3+) is just going to have this players, generally blocking or blitzing. But I don't see any reason why the blitz should be on the end of your turn. That is typically for Big Guys with Loner, because you can't use the TRR to prevent a turn-over.
Consider that you can always move the Blitzer in scoring range (without the ball) and he would just loose his tackle zone if he fails his BL 3+ roll. It's indeed not as reliable to potato with him as with a Thrower, but he still can be a viable scoring treat which can't be ignored and has ST4 and 2+ AG, so the opponent needs to pour resources into him or take a huge risk. 3+ rolls aren't impossible. |
_________________
By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249 |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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| Posted:
Oct 12, 2023 - 14:40 |
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| RDaneel wrote: |
The thing that makes me hesitant about the new Vampire Blitzer is the Bloodlust 3+ .
Eventually it forces you to play in such a way that almost all blitzes must be done with this player and at the last action of your turn. I don't know. It doesn't convince me much.
And I have the impressions many coach keep this player out of their roster... but i admit my knowledge is limited. |
| Bebop2Hands wrote: |
The BL(3+) is just going to have this players, generally blocking or blitzing. But I don't see any reason why the blitz should be on the end of your turn. That is typically for Big Guys with Loner, because you can't use the TRR to prevent a turn-over.
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because turnover in case you decide not to bite thrall...
In case is the last action of the turn i don't care of turnover (losing TZ is much better price to pay than risk to have one player removed). You can of course decide to use before but risk to remove thrall is higher and Blood lust 3+ risk to be over 16 turns a RR/Thrall eater... not sure, i need to play maybe some games with new vamps is just a stomach feeling. |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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Oct 12, 2023 - 14:55 |
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but of course also block ... sorry now i understand your objection . what i mean is that if i will use Vamp Blitzer i will have tendency to activate him at the very end of the turn... and because Juggernaut is usefull only during blitz this make me chose to use him for blitz |
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Kondor
Joined: Apr 04, 2008
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Oct 12, 2023 - 19:09 |
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Someone told me vampires do not leave the field now if they fail blood lust and have no one to bite. they just loose tackle zones and stand around. Is that correct. Not even a turn over on a failed blood lust. Did I hear correctly? |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Oct 12, 2023 - 20:43 |
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They can choose to not bite, or may be unable to bite.
Bite is at the END of the player's activation
If they don't bite, they stay on the field but lose tacklezones, which also means they lose all their skills (apart from Regen)
They also:
- drop the ball
- can't score a TD
- cause a turnover
This means for the BL3+ players, it's not actually so bad because you can move them at the end of the turn, and if they fail BL they still get to move, it's just they basically go bonehead after. So you're giving up tacklezones to preserve your thralls |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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| Nelphine wrote: | i obviously started my team as a meme (6 legacy vampires + 1 re-roll)
but despite that, i don't actually think you NEED the 4th re-roll to start. i'd go with
blitzer
2 thrower
2 runner
7 thralls
3 re-roll
1 DF |
I think on balance this is the best roster, though I’d be tempted to risk swapping the Blitzer for the Varg. You’ve only got 11 players then though. |
_________________
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude
Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Oct 13, 2023 - 01:15 |
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Eh, I much prefer juggernaut over claw, and ag 2+ over frenzy, +1 St, and loner. On top of that I'm paying 40k more for the second player? No thank you
I honestly dont see how anyone even considered a varg instead of the blitzer.
Yhetees are arguably the worst big guy in the game, and people are trying to say a big with the same stat line is somehow good? |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Oct 13, 2023 - 11:41 |
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Ok can we consolidate this, and update https://fumbbl.com/help:BB20VampireSetUp
I think the core of a recommendable build needs 3-4 Rerolls, 2 Throwers, 1 Runner, and either a Varg or a Blitzer.
That's 4 bloodlusters, and you can get 7-8 thralls with the rest
There's then only 2 choices to be made: Varg vs Blitzer, and extra Reroll vs extra Thrall
So that leaves these 4 combinations:
A) 2 Throwers, 1 Runner, 1 Vargh, 4 Rerolls, 7 Thralls = 990, 11 players
B) 2 Throwers, 1 Runner, 1 Vargh, 3 Rerolls, 8 Thralls = 970, 12 players
C) 2 Throwers, 1 Runner, 1 Blitzer, 4 Rerolls, 8 Thralls = 990, 12 players
D) 2 Throwers, 1 Runner, 1 Blitzer, 3 Rerolls, 9 Thralls = 970, 13 players
The important question for a recommended build is:
Which of these is least likely to end in disaster for a coach's first game with vamps? I'm leaning towards option C |
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Gnomes are trash
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