| Poll |
| Best BG for Chaos |
| Mino |
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39% |
[ 89 ] |
| Ogre |
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35% |
[ 80 ] |
| Troll |
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25% |
[ 57 ] |
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| Total Votes : 226 |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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 Posted:
Jul 20, 2005 - 00:30 |
 
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yeah but my point is: unless they get 2 +AG, they won't be significantly more useful. now do you base you development on rolling 6+5 _twice_ ? i know i don't ^^ |
_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
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origami
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 20, 2005 - 04:52 |
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(Post edited to correct calculations)
At least with Troll vs Ogre, this seems to just come down to personal preference.
My comments are also based on playing in ranked, not in tournaments.
In my personal experience, ogres stay on the field more than trolls. KOs are more likely to be rolled than injuries, and TS actually keeps the player on the field. Even if regen works, the troll is still out for the remainder of the drive. When playing chaos vs another bashy team (which is about the only games that chaos will get), there are only likely to be 2-3 drives per match (not counting kickoffs at t7, as 2 turn td are very difficult with strength teams).
Personally, I'd be more likely to foul a troll than an ogre, especially with a dirty player. Let's say that you foul with a DP with 4 assists. Sure, I'd prefer an injury, but a KO is almost as good, because I just want to reduce your numbers on the field enough that I can score on t7 or t8 without much difficulty.
Chance to remove from field:
Troll: 5+ to penetrate armor, 6+ to remove from field.
5/6 and 3/4 = 15/24. Approximately 2/3
Ogre: 5+ to penetrate armor, 6 - 7 to remove from field but with 4+ TS save, 8+ injury
5/6 and [(11/36 and 1/2) or 1/4] = 55/432 or 5/24 = 1/8 + 1/5 = approximately 1/4
2/3 chance of getting a troll off the field vs 1/4 chance of getting rid of the ogre.
That's also why I hate fouling dwarves. TS is a very nice skill for winning the battle of numbers in any one drive..and certainly better than regen when you look at that single drive. Also, if you have enough reserves, single drives are all that really matter. The above numbers show why I prefer TS to regen.
Feel free to disagree. The only thing that will truly end this discussion is a comparison of the winning percentages of chaos with ogres vs chaos with trolls. |
Last edited by origami on %b %20, %2005 - %15:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 20, 2005 - 08:38 |
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The two reasons I prefer Ogres has been mentioned.....
TTM without rolling to eat! You don't want to roll an extra dice when attempting a TTM and that is rare with Chaos anyway (30k per game option....hmmmm).
More importantly TS. You simply stand a better chance of staying on the field. My chaos have high FF and do win money. A dead ogre is no problem you can't buy your way out of. And lets face it..... what BG is comparable in effectiveness to some of the nasty beasties and warriors within Chaos teams! 
Coach to Big Guy: "Stand there!"
O/T/M: "Yes Boss!"
Tah-da! Ogres aren't as screwed if you moved off all your other players constrained by their MA of 5. Trolls have a mv of 4 and need someone near. Would love to get a DT Ogre......
__Synn |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 20, 2005 - 11:55 |
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I agree with Origami.
Also I must admit that I hate to move a guy next to my troll just that he stands up.
I hate when I am getting lower on the pitch an run my cage forward and having the troll useless due to really stupid and no guy to waste to roll a 2+.
I can see why you prefer trolls, Eddy, but I play a troll in my CD and ork teams and ogres in chaos and I definitely prefer ogres. |
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deathgerbil
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 20, 2005 - 12:14 |
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if you play with a troll enough, you learn how to play so that the really stupid isn't much of a handicap (ie, - having to move someone out of the way only once or twice a game). personally, i'd prefer a troll over an ogre becasue although thick skull keeps you on the pitch more, regenerate keeps you alive. so on a game per game basis, an ogre's probably a little better, but in the long run (5+ games) the regen will be much more helpful than thick skull will ever be. |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 20, 2005 - 13:31 |
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you guys contradict yourselves, you know ?
you speak about how TS is important because there are a few drives, yet you complain about the low movement and mandatory presence of a player near your troll.
i'm sorry, having played a great number of games with all sort of "bashy" teams, i have very rarely had to spread out. meaning that i advance in cage, for a small number of squares each time. which negates the low MA of the Troll (even though it is not much lower than the Ogre's) and RS. by the way, the point of the troll is to not move it if you don't need to, for example if it is standing and you cannot move a player next to it. or if you need it, it's only a 4+ after all. play against a Mino or Rat-Ogre, you'll see that a 4+ does happen, huh.
or, if you do advance quickly, don't stall, and all, then there are many drives, and Regen becomes more important than Thick Skull.
as for fouling a Troll rather than an Ogre ? well, more power to you. you'll have a hard time to do any permanent harm, and that's a good player in my team that you will not foul. |
_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
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xen7ric
Joined: Jan 13, 2005
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| Posted:
Jul 20, 2005 - 13:37 |
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The movement and having to keep a player in contact are only really a problem in defence, big problem though IMHO. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 20, 2005 - 13:57 |
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| Eddy wrote: | | you guys contradict yourselves, you know ? |
we maybe perfer ogres for different reasons.
Anyway, you say you just move a few squares after a few squares. But did you never encounter the case when you don't cas a lot. With no cas, you spend 3 to 4 turns near the middle field. That's usually the cas when I need to make a push forward and opt for a side to half the size of my cage and make it quick. I usually try to overcage (en rajouter une couche pour Eddy) and to spread out TZ on most possible quick recovering defenders that they don't block my way again.
Troll don't fit to that stategie. With my ogre with MA 5 I can block out 2-3 guys without needing his nurse and usually BT helps him to come back the turn after to get new TZ on most dangerous players. If he fails that's not a problem. After all the guys he blocked the turn before can't stop my rushing side cage. If he does, he hinders again the defender.
Okay if you cas well, you don't need it. But definitely, that's not always the case. |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 20, 2005 - 14:09 |
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| Sk8bcn wrote: | | we maybe perfer ogres for different reasons. |
that's not my point when i say you contradict yourselves. you can take whatever BG you want, the point remains that when you say "Ogres are better because of that" it is wrong.
there's no link at all between CAS and a troll.
you say an Ogre can "block out 2-3 guys". if that means you put him somewhere and have him block, then you won't be able to tie a lot of players, because of follow-ups and all.
anyway, i think the main difference between those who prefer Ogres and those who prefer Troll is that we understood that BGs shouldn't be relied upon. I only cage with a BG when i NEED it, because that means moving him every turn, which i DON'T want to do, to avoid rolling for negatraits. my Troll is there to tie-up players in a melee.
and when you spread out, if NO player is next to another, then that means you're pretty much screwed, unless playing against stunties, because you'll never be able to block your way through. the "handicap" of RS is not one in a scrum, nor is the movement. |
_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 20, 2005 - 14:46 |
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glap. My english has to become better.
For block translate per "bloquer- gener"
for the lateral cage:
.............x . x..........
...............x.............
.............x . x..........
Now I sometimes need to free out when I can't get off pitch the annoying opponents that hinders my cage.
So I move forward on a side (4-5 squares gained)
. x...........................
x.............................
. x...........................
but this strategie is dangerous. if the opponent recovers he can block my way out by putting 2 guys in front and some on the side and since I use that when I run out of time I don't want it to happen.
So I need to "overcage"
. x... O.......................
x.............................
. x..x........................
..x............................
to keep the hole open. This cost me players and I can't "waste" them on the troll. Could I put the Ogre in O it would be top. Else if he hinders 2 guys behind with no assistance, I can get player advantage here and secure the TD. |
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origami
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 20, 2005 - 15:32 |
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I'm pretty sure that everybody here understands that BG shouldn't be relied upon. I actually use BG in much the same way that you do, Eddy. They are big lumps that serve to get in your opponents way and hopefully lend a few assists with guard. I often avoid moving them or blocking with them. I also agree that RS isn't much worse than TS in the hands of an experienced coach. However, there will come times when the RS will burn you...it may not happen often, but it will happen.
Actually, I probably wouldn't foul the troll, either...especially as RS becomes a worse negatrait as your opponent's players leave the field. My example was more to illustrate the differences between the two in staying on the field as well as to address Pau's comment on fouling them. |
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Pau
Joined: Jan 12, 2005
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| Posted:
Jul 21, 2005 - 21:33 |
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Your example didn't take into account that if he rolls that 6+ the troll will be able to play for the rest of the match on a 3+ and your TS ogre won't for that match and maybe for the next one. You can't show how good ogres are and explain it awesome like and then forget to show how awesome regen works, because thats low.
Edit: In my personal experience I belive both of them are los fodder, the difference is that troll will always be los fodder and ogres can do other stuff. The problem here is that ogres aren't reliable since they are BGs and that ends up screwing you. You know the troll will fail so you don't use him for anything risky, while you get tempted to with an ogre. Also, when getting fouled with a DP you don't usually get KO'd, but thats my personal experience. |
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Pau
Joined: Jan 12, 2005
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| Posted:
Jul 21, 2005 - 21:39 |
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| Macavity wrote: | I think the "With luck they can get AG 4" was the relevant part, Eddy.  |
Actually all 3 parts are important.
AG2 negates a -1. Not eating right stuff players helps a lot, of course, and being able to get ag4 also helps.
When TTMing the important thing is to not fumble, so thats why having high AG is a need, not to succeed, but to not fumble. Sure rolling a 6 will make you succeed but hoping for a 6 is kind of stupid in my opinion. |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 21, 2005 - 21:45 |
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weeeeeeeell, the point is: AG is irrelevant to fumbles, only the range, TZ, and "very sunny" are (FA doesn't work on TTMs). that's why you don't care having AG3. |
_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
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Pau
Joined: Jan 12, 2005
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| Posted:
Jul 21, 2005 - 21:50 |
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| Eddy wrote: | | weeeeeeeell, the point is: AG is irrelevant to fumbles, only the range, TZ, and "very sunny" are (FA doesn't work on TTMs). that's why you don't care having AG3. |
but you see, a quick TTM pass is at normal AG difficulty, next is -1, next is -2 so if you have ag2 and roll a 4 it will turn into a 2, while if you had ag1 it will turn into a 1 fumbilng. Thats why you care having high AG. |
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