BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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  Posted:
Aug 27, 2005 - 20:05 |
 
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OK i know what i am talking about.
Most people seem to think gaining SPP is a good thing.
Well, surprise, it's NOT a good thing.
Players need to get some skills to be efficient. Once they got those two skills to make do what they are supposed to do, every additional SPP just inflates your TR, while the additional skills are only rarely used.
This is the point where someone will jump in and argue so i'll make a quick example, to prove the point:
Human Lineman, first skill Block: that skill is used almost every turn.
Hman Lineman seventh skill, lets say "Leader": that skill s used once per match.
Point beeing: Block is essential, Leader is nice.
OK whats that to do with fouls?
- Dirty Players do not improve.
That means the following... you have a human Lineman and give him Dirty Player as a first skill. So naturally if you play Dirty Player as a active strategy (as opposed to the option to foul back to defend against dirty player), your dirty player takes almost no actions other than move or foul. So the guy picks up almost no SPP.
My point here is that you can keep dirty players extremely long, and they are damn efficient while adding almost nothing to your teamrating. They do not age but still they inflict more casualties than your top-blockers.
I'm speaking from experience here. My Human Teams dirty players are en-par with the blitzers for casualties but my blitzers become more and more costly for the team, are exposed all the time and get hurt.
The dirty players just kick a opposing positional and leave the pitch. Leaving me stripped of a worthless lineman and the opposition of a without their bet scorers or blitzers.
Even more so, again talking from experience, additional skills make you hesitate from using dirty player. If you have a lineman with guard, you don't risk him beeing sent off. A lineman with dirty player only is no loss at all, but even a lineman with block beeing sent off hurts your chances of winning the match.
IF fouls would earn SPP, dirty players would age and niggle all the time, they would pick up additional skills that would "surpass" the dirty player, making them more valuable on the field than in the penalty box. And, as the teams top CAS collectors, they would inflate team rating - which would reflect the power they add to the team, beeing the casualtie machines they are.
Of course, fouls with non-dirty players would be encouraged, to earn spp, just as the odd 1spp passes. However i am the last person who thinks those fouls would be problematic.
Having 3 dirty players with only 16 spp each, wich gives you Block and Dirty player. Those 3 guys have a total of 60 casualties that show up nowhere. If they did show up, they would be worth like 120 SPP or 24 teamrating points.
Seriously i know the game comes from 3rd edition and those fouling rules were totally broken. I know the concern was that SPP would encourage fouling. Seriously thats the wrong conclusion. Right now i can use my Dirty Player Linemen for ages with no drawback. Again this is coming from someone who uses dirty player as a winning strategy.
Come to think of it, there are no more skills that improve dirty player. For example it no longer combines with mighty blow (other than 3rd edition). So allowing SPP for fouls would not improve Dirty Players as such, in their fouling performance that is.
I'd be especially interested what folks like gerbil think about that argumentation. |
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Hammerhiem
Joined: Sep 07, 2004
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Aug 27, 2005 - 20:13 |
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So should sucsessful TTM, and Vamps Casing thier own players but they don't, they never will and no matter what you say about it here, it won't influence JJ so all i can say is take it to people who can change it. |
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tautology
Joined: Jan 30, 2004
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Aug 27, 2005 - 20:22 |
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It used to be the case that fouls could earn star player points and the result was that every team had 3 DPs or more.
It was silly and reduced the game to "who can roll more cas more quickly."
It is also extremely detrimental to a perpetual league like FUMBBL as teams had a hard time living past ten games or so. And you can forget about playing games at the higher TRs (220+) as no one can get above that level and stay there for long.
Fouls should not earn SPPs, and frankly DP should be reduced to a +1 so that it matches mighty blow.
There are some good ideas out there about increasing the consequences of fouling when "the eye" is on you as well which would still allow tactical fouling but would discourage the "foul you every turn until your team is destroyed" strategy which, while currently valid, makes for a lousy and boring game. |
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nin
Joined: May 27, 2005
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Aug 27, 2005 - 20:26 |
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Here you have a point, but nobody in this site can solve it, it's a Living Rulebook rule... and outside this site where tournaments, players, and teams use to have shorter lives awarding spp encourages fouling and Dirty Players, and killer teams in real live Bloodbowl tournaments can spoil the fun, more than here at least. |
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Kyojima
Joined: Jun 14, 2004
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Aug 27, 2005 - 20:29 |
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BigMac, as soon as you discover a mechanism by which a normal block can be modified by +10 on the injury roll, I'll agree with you. Until you can do so, I will have to disagree with your opinion. |
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Aug 27, 2005 - 20:38 |
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| tautology wrote: | It used to be the case that fouls could earn star player points and the result was that every team had 3 DPs or more.
It was silly and reduced the game to "who can roll more cas more quickly."
It is also extremely detrimental to a perpetual league like FUMBBL as teams had a hard time living past ten games or so. And you can forget about playing games at the higher TRs (220+) as no one can get above that level and stay there for long.
Fouls should not earn SPPs, and frankly DP should be reduced to a +1 so that it matches mighty blow.
There are some good ideas out there about increasing the consequences of fouling when "the eye" is on you as well which would still allow tactical fouling but would discourage the "foul you every turn until your team is destroyed" strategy which, while currently valid, makes for a lousy and boring game. |
did you even read the posting?
no.
else you would not feel the need to tell me what it used to be, when i explicitly refer to how it used to be!
for you, in short: if fouling would earn SPP, it would be HARDER, not easier to use it effectively.
as to your comments on fouling and uhuh how nasty it is and you wanna reduce dp to be useless: erm no.
Get the ref needs to be fixed, agreed.
And making fouls earn SPP, hence make expert foulers inflate tr and even age just as expert blitzers, would make fouling a less effective strategy. |
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Kyojima
Joined: Jun 14, 2004
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Aug 27, 2005 - 20:47 |
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BigMac, were you playing when fouling generated SPPs? |
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Glennfinito
Joined: Aug 13, 2005
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Aug 27, 2005 - 20:55 |
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How is it harder to use DP effiiciently, if, as you suggest, it earns you SPP?
If the first or second skill all my linemen take is DP, I can safely and efficiently earn SPP while negating my opponents more expensive players.
Then I can use the remaining linemen, and score a TD..
Also if you earned SPP by fouling, you could level your starting players much faster...But they wouln't last long since I lose 2 players per match to dirty players my self..
Please explain how this rule wouldn't turn the game into a casualty war? Please by all means! |
Last edited by Glennfinito on %b %27, %2005 - %20:%Aug; edited 1 time in total |
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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Aug 27, 2005 - 20:55 |
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Sure.
But you have to tell the COMPLETE storry:
Fouls earned SPP, and Dirty Player could be combined with multiple further damage enhancing skills (Dirty Player+Mighty Blow+Claws+Razor Sharp Fangs used to be +2+1+2/+2+1+2 = +5/+5 to armour and injury)
There used to be no Eye, and a whole bunch of other parameters, especially the injury system had no "casualty roll" (sigurd's roll).
So you cant just say it used to be fouls earn SPP so THAT caused the problems. The problem was thas fouling efficiency could even be improved beyond totally broken.
Under LRB, fouling cannot get any better than Dirty Player, so additional skills do NOT improve fouling efficiecy. At best, they protect the fouler (+1ST, Block, Dodge) who on the other hand (ST4 Block Dodge Lineman, HELLOOO!) becomes to valuable to be sent off. |
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Glennfinito
Joined: Aug 13, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 27, 2005 - 21:01 |
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So giving all you players DP is ok, then?
because, well, you know? I can always foul with at least half my team at least once. For SPP of course!
How many casualties do you think that would lead to? |
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Aug 27, 2005 - 21:03 |
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| Glennfinito wrote: | How is it harder to use DP effisciently, if, as you suggest, earns you SPP?
if the first or second skill all my linemen take is DP, I can safely and effisciently earn SPP while negating my opponents more expensive players.
Please explain how this rule wouldn't turn the game into a casualty war? Please by all means! |
please read the opening posting?
once i got dirty player, i foul. once i got more than dirty player, idon't foul as much because i don't want a player that can do more than just foul be sent off. When i don't get sent off, i stay on the field and might get injured. When i earn spp, i might age and my team rating inflates.
A player that scores 20 casualties would be 8 points of TR alone for doing that. Why is such a playe allowed to be virtually peaked?
Again, gaining skills is BAD unless they improve you in what you do.
A blitzer needs a couple of skills, a fouler just needs dirty player. So the fouler WOULD just get more and more of a spp hog, inflating your TR just to be sent of after a couple of turns. So logic dictates you had to use such a player for MORE than fouling to have a efficient team, meaning there would be LESS fouls. |
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Glennfinito
Joined: Aug 13, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 27, 2005 - 21:07 |
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What prevents me from Fireing my SP hogging fouler and getting a new one? It keeps my TR down, while at the same time giving me the same CAS potential
Earning 6 SPP isn't that hard, especially if all I have to do is foul ac ouple of times.
And yes I read your first post |
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Aug 27, 2005 - 21:18 |
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what is the diffrence between keeping a expert fouler for no cost and retiring foulers and having to buy and build new ones?
are you serious in what you are saying?
its just plain harder to get new ones than to keep one of those for ever and a day!
how does it reduce the number of fouls if i am allowed to keep a fouler forever?
he doens't age, he doesn't inflate TR and he doesn't get injured because he's sent off way too early to be hit.
Look at this team:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=137026
Dirty Players played for 61/47/47 out of 80 games. The only player that stayed with the team that long is the 68 games thrower.
The ONE thrower adds 106 SPP (21 TR points) while TREE expert foulers add 107 SPP (21 TR points as well).
So, what's the greater asset to this team, one thrower or the 3 linemen?
Also, which of the linemen is likely to be sent off last? And do you think i'd contionue to foul if i rolled doubles for the other 2 linemen that gave me 2 more guards?
Fouling without earning SPP is like having permanent, peaked Star Players. Those guys do what they do best, there is no way to do it better and there is no downside whatsoever to having them on the team. |
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Candlejack
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 27, 2005 - 21:21 |
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well toby.. all your reasoning bases on ONE assumption.. a player with dp is not used for anything else than fouling and therefore has no use for other skills.. or more general, that every player has only one sole purpose and therefore does not need more than 2 or 3 skills.. well.. a dp with block/dodge is much harder to get down and therefore harder to take out.. and there would be zillions of other examples when players could very well use several different skills.. |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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| Posted:
Aug 27, 2005 - 21:23 |
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| Candlejack wrote: | | well toby.. |
thanks Candlejack, i really wondered who on earth could post such things (now and in the past). now i understand =)
anyway, to answer the funny arguments of this thread. when fouls brought in SPPs, every lineman's first skill was DP, and they then skilled into monsters very quickly. your proposal would be useless since DP would become a systematical choice for every lineman, so it would never hurt to lose one to aging or anything else. |
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Last edited by Eddy on %b %27, %2005 - %21:%Aug; edited 1 time in total |
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