CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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 Posted:
Oct 10, 2005 - 18:48 |
 
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Wow.. I am surprised that I got positive feedback now after the suggestion was pretty much shot down after the first day.
I guess Cloggy really summed up things best:
| Cloggy wrote: | The circle itself is less important than the thought behind it.
It's kind of sad that some of the best coaches in our community are simply labelled "cherrypickers". It shows a lack of appreciation for the amount of skill some of these guys have. I have played against some of the prospective members of this group. Regardless of the results of these games I was always left with the feeling that with equal luck they would beat me in most games.
A set of groundrules like this will separate the really good coaches, whose games we should all watch to learn, from Sarumanthewhite and his kind. |
I`d like to adress a few things:
- Monitoring
Best system would be, if members of the circle would just be under scrunity of the community. Just like the sins and shortcommings of celebrities always come out, it the elders would be some of the most watched people
- Hiring-issue
Fact is, that you can trick people into matches they don`t like with this method and it is NOT acceptable in my opinion for someone who seeks higher standards.
- CR-importance:
Even when you play down REALLY alot, your CR will always rise by atleast 0.15 points, because the further increase of CR-dif has diminishing effects. So CR-wise it`s not really a big deal, if you play a CR 155 or 135 coach, because the CR-gain won`t differ alot, but the skill-gap is usually huge at that level.
I really made this experience by myself, when I stopped cherrypicking myself after the win of Ulthuan and dropped about 14 points in CR (yes, I was overconfident, but I gained the insight, that pure CR isn`t everthing)
- Team-cherrypicking:
I am still thinking about guidelines to prevent this. The obvious zons vs dwarves matchup will be adressed, but maybe other guidelines will follow.
- CR to join
The rules aren`t set in stone and I am really thinking about lowering the CR needed to apply to 172 (and you can stay as long as you have 170+). In addition, the fumbbl-cup is going on right now and will give a huge CR-movement - so I expect alot of coaches to breach CR 175 shortly. |
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HollowOne
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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Oct 10, 2005 - 19:50 |
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Circularlogic>
For Dwarves vs Amazons, I suggest that a rule of thumb for "fair" challenges is to deduct 2 points of TS per Amazon player. So a 180 TS Amazon team would, for the purpose of your guidelines, count as a 150 TS team for the purposes of being challenged by a dwarf Elder coach. The converse applies in favour of the Elder coach if he's an Amazon player challenging a dwarf.
Just an idea. |
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Gatts
Joined: Jun 18, 2004
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Oct 10, 2005 - 20:16 |
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Just notidced that i've somehow managed to crawl up above the 175 CR barrier (thanks alot lucky fumbblcup games) but i have also realized that it is very difficult to maintain the high ethics for getting games that circularlogic suggests.
If some coach challenged me I'd feel like an idiot if i told him: "yeah, sure, we could play but i'd beat the crap out of you because im just that good"
i'd say it alot more politely but still that'd basically be the general message.
I'd ofcourse feel even more silly after we agree to play and he beats me 
It's also a question of availabilty, i mostly play with soft'n squishy teams but still it sometimes take quite a logn time just to get a challenge ( hope this doesnt mean i am on a lot of peoples dnp lists). I try to wait for challenges rather than challenging myself since when challenging i subconsiously stay cleer of the killer teams. It feels alot better being challenged by a claw-chaos team and bravely accepting the challenge then walking up to the drooling beasts politely asking them to please hurt me for an hour or two.
That is ofcourse justa personal preference but even if i'd try challenging more frequently the guidelines would still limit the games i coiuld accept quite severly atleast once my temas starts hitting the upper end of the TR/TS scale.
So.. well.. basically maybe this group aint made for me.. but i'd be glad to be among the selected few and i agree with the basic sentiment, the underlying ethical code that seems to be what circularlogic tries to aim for, even though im not sure i agree with the technicalities. |
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CorporateSlave3
Joined: Feb 07, 2004
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Oct 10, 2005 - 21:35 |
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| Wizard wrote: | | Quote: |
- Hiring stars or wizards before the game without either telling your opponent or stating with a large (EDIT: I think you meant 'font' "This team will use its treasury. Ask about it before agreeing on the match." on the bottom line of your teambio.
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This is a silly rule because it is almost the equivelant of match fixing.
Hiring stars/wizards is part of the (EDIT: I think you meant 'pre-') game sequence (after accepting the game) and is allowed because telling your opponent that you will not use your cash before the game is almost the same as agreeing not to foul. |
While you are right that freebooters (stars, wizards, even freeboot rookies) are part of the pre-match sequence and are, according to the LRB, done after the match has been agreed to, I think what CircularLogic is saying is not that you promise not to use your cash pre-game (which could be argued to be a pre-match agreement), but that you notify the opponent that you might use it.
The way I see it, that just helps preserve the of the spirit pre-match sequence (as Laviak mentioned) since both coaches should have equal opportunity to hire freebooters pre-match. It is the situation of having your opponent host (and thereby lock his team) and then hiring a freebooter and join as client as a 'nasty surprise' that he wants to avoid - and which, IMHO, is just as much cheating* as agreeing not to foul.
Better would simply be to host, and tell your opponent that you have freebooted so that he has the option to freeboot his own. Of course, they might bail on the match (which I view as cheating, though Fumbbl does not), but the mission here is to play honorably, not try to force others to do the same, even to their disadvantage.
*The logic here being you skipped your opponent's 'Hire Freebooters' pre-game sequence stage, since in a strict LRB environment, they would be able to see if you were hiring your own before deciding to hire their own. |
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heinz
Joined: Mar 24, 2004
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Oct 10, 2005 - 22:03 |
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I agree with the noble and ethical thoughts behind this idea, though as Mr_Launcher has said, ranked is already an attempt to create "objective" standards for coaching skills, and frankly, I dont see the new suggested ones beeing more neutral or objective, than the formula we have. So membership of "the circle" is just a common agreement between some coaches to pick games in a certain (perhaps more ethical) way; no proof (to me at least), that the members are the best of the best of the best, sir.
Also with ranked tournaments like Rookie Rumble you can still "cherrypick" within the system suggested. Some races (like tr100 popular undead or skaven) would be (almost objectively) easier than others (DE, norse)...you could have a min. average game rule to avoid exploitation. And you would have to handle ranked tournament situation with set and potential "illegal" games. I'm sure more rules could be imbursed to take these things into consideration, but I see no end to the rulebook if you want to go "objective" all the way...like Zones vs. Dorf is only allowed if....Oneturnes can only be used if...you have to play xx different races with each team in yy games...no matter how many rules, the open ranked format would always leave you open to choose your games, and part of the CR-meta game is exactly that - choose/pick your games with care.
So I guess this circle is just not for me either, even if I did meet the standards. However I wish Circular and other good luck with the gentleman project, and I'll challenge you on sight (if you meet my subjective, secret picking standards ) |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Oct 11, 2005 - 01:32 |
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I don´t want to obstruct players too much.
Tournament situations don´t fall under the rules, as you don´t challenge someone there. I guess you cannot eleminate picking good matches, as players will always seek the best games under the given restrictions - the circle is just aimed at avoiding the worst examples of cherrypicking, that gave coaches who play for CR a bad reputation.
The group should also make "power-gamers" an asset to the community instead of ballast as they are often viewed.
e.g. newer players can challenge circle-members without fear of being ripped of, because a circlemember will (or at least should) tell him why he is very likely to lose. |
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Arcon
Joined: Mar 01, 2004
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Oct 11, 2005 - 08:48 |
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I would feel honored if I ever reach that CR and become a member of this group..
technically it could be difficult for finding and arranging games. But I think it is worth a try. I have a Halfling and an Ogre team right now in Ranked, and as a principle I usually wait till challanged instead of challanging myself (with all teams). And guess what? These 2 teams are most often challanged by coaches with low CR. So, I fear I hardly will find opponents for these teams. But again, with senses sharpened and the goal to follow these guidelines, maybe I would.
As for hiring players or wizards, that has been discussed so many times here. Of course it is allowed, but the question is, is it the etiquette not to tell your opponent? What is the problem with editing your team bio stating you might use your cash without telling after arranging the game? There are also coaches who edit their Vampire info saying they will score on OFAB.
And a last word to tournaments, the RRR in special. Personally I do not think that it is really great to create front loaded teams to win the tourney and delete the teams when they drop out only to create a new team and try again. I think the tourney is a nice start up for teams in R, but I also think that the idea is to have long living teams. As stated before, playing in the Fumbbl Cup can never be considered cherry picking and thus games should not be looked at the same way as single R-games. |
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Tommi
Joined: May 17, 2004
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Oct 11, 2005 - 09:43 |
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Having played against few coaches in top 20, I dont think the skill level is so great between me and 'them'. The rare occasion I do get a match against them I have enjoyed immensely, as it is often chance to see great moves. But CR depends really a lot on what kind of matches you like to play. Like I like to play with high av teams, because I can play up a lot (both CR and team STR) without risking team loss, and it is easy to get games that way, but it also means I will not get CR. I dont go to many matches, but not because Im afraid of losing, but cause I dont want to lose my teams.
Like discussed many times before, the way to get CR is to choose your games, Circular is now suggesting that your choose your games 'just a little', which I think is lame. The truth is we have lot of CR 160 coaches here, who play really well, but are willing to play anyone, and should earn much more respect than CR 170 coaches who choose 'just a little'.
A good way to try to fix the situation would be 'hard play' rating. If you play down you lose the rating, if you play up you gain rating. Would be a good indication of player next to his CR, telling basically 'plays only newbies and then only dwarfs vs amazons' or 'plays fair games' or 'plays insane hard games'. And the CR would then tell whether he wins those matches or not. |
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Smess
Joined: Feb 13, 2004
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Oct 11, 2005 - 12:28 |
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| Tommi wrote: |
Like discussed many times before, the way to get CR is to choose your games, Circular is now suggesting that your choose your games 'just a little', which I think is lame. The truth is we have lot of CR 160 coaches here, who play really well, but are willing to play anyone, and should earn much more respect than CR 170 coaches who choose 'just a little'.
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IMO, almost anybody picks his games a little. If you have two fair matchups, but one team has lotsa claw/RSC/DP and you choose to play the other one, you PICK the game. It's not cherrypicking because both games are fair games where both have equal chances to win, you just pick the game which seems to be more fun for you at that time.
The rules circular suggests don't tell you how to 'pick just a little', they tell how you should definatly NOT pick your games.
A coach who plays by these rules and maintains a 175+ rating should earn more respect than a coach playing by the same rules, maintaining a 160+ rating. |
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Ironik
Joined: Jun 28, 2004
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Oct 11, 2005 - 13:14 |
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So are you making this club of elites or not? |
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MrMojo
Joined: Apr 17, 2004
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Oct 11, 2005 - 13:19 |
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This thread needs PIE!
You take yourselves way too seriously, but I guess that's your right. But I quote Groucho Marx: "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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Oct 11, 2005 - 13:36 |
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ok so we have a circle of the Elder composed bu Smess and Circular. This leads us to the following question:
Who is Grandpa and who is Grandma? |
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Tommi
Joined: May 17, 2004
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Oct 11, 2005 - 14:26 |
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| Quote: |
The rules circular suggests don't tell you how to 'pick just a little', they tell how you should definatly NOT pick your games.
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He does? So what does this mean?:
| Quote: |
I guess you cannot eleminate picking good matches, as players will always seek the best games under the given restrictions - the circle is just aimed at avoiding the worst examples of cherrypicking
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My translation: you get to the circle if you pass the really unfair games because the other guy is n00b, but you still got decent CR. Anything else goes.
| Quote: |
A coach who plays by these rules and maintains a 175+ rating should earn more respect than a coach playing by the same rules, maintaining a 160+ rating.
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Sure, a coach who picks only a little is better at CR 175 than a coach who picks only a little at CR 160. Whats your point?
What I am saying, is that we could be doing better than just giving credit to the polite power gamers. Lets put a tag on every player, which shows how he got where he is. That way we get the elders of the elders of the elders of the circle, sir. |
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Smess
Joined: Feb 13, 2004
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Oct 11, 2005 - 14:45 |
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| Tommi wrote: |
A good way to try to fix the situation would be 'hard play' rating. If you play down you lose the rating, if you play up you gain rating. Would be a good indication of player next to his CR, telling basically 'plays only newbies and then only dwarfs vs amazons' or 'plays fair games' or 'plays insane hard games'. And the CR would then tell whether he wins those matches or not. |
| Tommi wrote: |
What I am saying, is that we could be doing better than just giving credit to the polite power gamers. Lets put a tag on every player, which shows how he got where he is. |
Personally, I think it would be very hard to implement. You would not only have to take in account TR/SR, but also which races a coach plays with, and against which races he plays with that race.
Given that it will never be implemented without trying out first, why dont you calculate a system by which this rating would be awarded and start a group that people can join and get this 'hard play' rating. |
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Tommi
Joined: May 17, 2004
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Oct 11, 2005 - 15:16 |
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| Quote: |
Personally, I think it would be very hard to implement. You would not only have to take in account TR/SR, but also which races a coach plays with, and against which races he plays with that race.
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I would only take team strength and coach rating into account. Total TS difference for your games / number of games. Lower the players TS for a game for if he is below average player like by 155 - CR if CR < 155. It's a start.
As for taking account races that play against each other, it is something that should be integrated into team str. Like when you start a game, it would calculate what is the real st difference in the dwarf-amazon game, and would disallow it if it gets over 40 ts dif. |
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