Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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 Posted:
Jan 25, 2006 - 19:33 |
 
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I originally posted this message into brownrob's poll about FUMBBL's coach ranking system. However, I decided to create a very own thread for it, as my message was at least partially off-topic and I don't think that many people will browse to page 8 of a poll to read a lengthy reply worth setting their eyes on.
The problem of ranked: <b>Having ranking-oriented and casual play lumped into a single FUMBBL division creates a huge problem.</b>
<u>Ranking or "measuring one's greatness" -point of view:</u>
Ranked is not official enough because people are indeed allowed to play against other coaches of any CR. If we were to truly have one division for reliably ranking each coach in order from best to worst, strict rules would need to be enforced - such as not being able to turn down challenges and forcing each coach to play e.g. +/-5 CR max. This would result in less games played total per division but it would all be done for the sake of creating a credible system for ranking every player. These people are generally willing to seek out strong opponents and compete against them in equal matchups. They are extremely annoyed when people with much less skill/talent than they have become ranked as high as they are (which is possible by cherry picking according to either TR, race or CR). Then they try to get casual players to leave Ranked and/or blame the ranking system itself for being unprecise and showing wrong people high up in CR.
Real life example of what these players are trying to create on FUMBBL: the tennis world list of players
<u>Casual point of view:</u>
Ranked is not casual enough. Some people DO care about their coach ranking->choosing strictly who you are going to play against->uncasualness
Ranked is not casual enough for a casual player, who just puts his teams on the gamefinder to LFG and will accept any match they are offered. These coaches are looking for fun and challenges, not a ranking system. They "ruin" the rankings of ranked division by accepting unbalanced matchups (=allow themselves to be "cherry picked" from time to time) in order to have fun. This group of people is very unlikely to move their teams into Unranked for casual play because they get games more easily in Ranked division. These people generally like to take the easy way out of finding games, possibly due to not spending too much on FUMBBL, in the internet or in front of their computers in general.
Real life example of what these players are trying to create on FUMBBL: a beer and pretzels-kind of atmosphere
<u>A possible compromise:</u>
-Let only the official ranked tournaments affect CR
-Make Ranked officially the casual play division
-Unranked would then be the tournament and league division in which serious coaches would be able to compete versus each other within a league/tournament environment
IMO an open league is always a poor way to measure one's skills or talent. I would rather see open play as purely casual and leagues & tournaments (both official and unofficial) as the competitive coach's choice.
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You will most likely notice that casual players' and ranking-oriented players' aims have a huge mismatch between each other. The current situation does not really satisfy either group of players, although the casual players are generally far less likely to complain about anything - they just log in, put their team(s) in gamefinder, play a match, log out and couldn't care less about the existence of this debate.
As an attempt of showing I am not alone, I have created a FUMBBL group to show there are lots of people looking for a fun, casual match (or a few) who protest against the CR system of Ranked division:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=group&op=view&group=3132
Please also see Lord_Splutticus's related thread, created one day before mine:
http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=7192 |
Last edited by Karhumies on %b %25, %2006 - %21:%Jan; edited 3 times in total |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2006 - 19:34 |
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Before moving the discussion over to this thread, I received the following reply from angelface:
| angelface wrote: | | Karhumies wrote: | | IMO an open league is always a poor way to measure one's skills or talent. I would rather see open play as purely casual and leagues & tournaments (both official and unofficial) as the competitive coach's choice. |
Karhumies for president 
As long as ranked division is full of team bios with pitiful terms (dp's dont ask) and miserable fluff-covered pleas (ofcourse we are wussy, we are skaven), there is no use of any ranking efforts. |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2006 - 19:54 |
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To add another point of view to the discussion about to develop:
If there was an immensely popular casual LRB-compliant division without a coach ranking system in which it would be easy to LFG, that would be the perfect spot for elf coaches to play "wussy games" versus each other, treeless flings or all-zombies to be tried out just for a laugh and so on. None of the ranking-oriented players would become angry about how the beforementioned teams/coaches ruin the accuracy of the ranking system and player rankings by either carefully selecting their opponents or by fooling around.
This Elven kind of behaviour is currently often mistakenly seen as cherry picking in [R]anked, even though the Elven players' aim is not to win all of their games but to have fun their way: by impressive blitz and passing game feats, as well as sustainable team development. For this kind of play style DivX is too weird, Ladder & Faction are too ranking-oriented and in Unranked it is often hard to find matches because it's not possible to ask to browse coach bios in search of another elfie team 'cause the team in question is most likely participating an [U] tournament or league.
We need a new FUMBBL division for LRB-compliant teams who are looking for fun matches. There should not be a ranking system involved, as that will take away some of the fun - because some coaches will accuse you of cherry picking (even if you couldn't care less about your opponent - you just take the fastest match offers you receive), some will blame you for fooling around with treeless flings (even though that's just your form of having fun) and others will blame you for "obsessive" fouling when they are repeatedly stalling in a corner in order to get a 100% certain victory->their CR will go up (you were fouling him just because he takes the fun out of your game and he is complaining because your fouling takes the fun out of his CR & long-term team development). |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2006 - 19:58 |
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I'm sure most readers will already have come across it, but this campaign needs to link up with Lord_Splutticus' related thread.
One unified proposal would, imo, have to be better than working cross-purposes for what essentially seems to be the same aim.
[Edit: Can I drop just a couple of my [R] teams into your group?  I'm with you in principle, but don't want to board the bandwagon till I'm sure it's rolling!  ] |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2006 - 20:06 |
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| pac wrote: | I'm sure most readers will already have come across it, but this campaign needs to link up with Lord_Splutticus' related thread.
One unified proposal would, imo, have to be better than working cross-purposes for what essentially seems to be the same aim. |
Our aims are similar, yet slightly different from one another. My proposal is slightly simpler and changes the FUMBBL structure less. I am not trying to abolish the DivX division, neither add new tabs into FUMBBL as a part of my suggestion. I will settle for less.
All I'd like to see is three separate divisions:
a) LRB LFG, no CR involved
b) A division for ranking-oriented players
c) Unranked as it is (serving as a tournament and league -division moreso than casual play)
If this claim is impossible, as a compromise I would propose that CR would be counted from official FUMBBL tournament matches only.
I will happily cross-link our threads, as the main point is essentially the same.
| pac wrote: | | [Edit: Can I drop just a couple of my [R] teams into your group? I'm with you in principle, but don't want to board the bandwagon till I'm sure it's rolling! ] |
Sure thing. The group is now open also to all Ranked division teams supporting our claim. |
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Smess
Joined: Feb 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2006 - 20:21 |
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| Karhumies wrote: |
The problem of ranked: <b>Having ranking-oriented and casual play lumped into a single FUMBBL division creates a huge problem.</b>
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I dont' consider this is a problem, I consider it the strongest aspect of ranked. I love the diversity there is in this division: ANY type of coach can be found here, and that is how it should be imo. I don't want to play competative coaches all the time, and I don't want to play casual coaches all the time eiher.
Conclusion: I like the system how it is now perfectly, anyone can have fun in his own way (even the cherrypickers, but jackasses always will be around), there are enough options.
If you want something more competative, play tourneys, faction, or try to get to high CR. If you want to play more casual, play whoever you wanna play and don't worry about CR (how can you say you don't care about CR, and still want it see removed?), play some stunty or whatever.
By the way, as usual when you split people up in two categories, it might be usefull, but is inacurrate. It should be seen as a continuum, because most people will be somewhere in between those categories, and the difference between two categories is not always that clear (example: you also have women who are trapped in a man's body, etc. ). |
Last edited by Smess on %b %25, %2006 - %20:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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phil78
Joined: Jul 29, 2004
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Jan 25, 2006 - 20:22 |
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The idea of a new division sounds great but the idea of CR only counting in tourneys seems an unfair idea as there are probably plenty of people for who their CR is meaningful but aren't able to commit to scheduled tournaments (I know I'd enter more [U] events but never know when I'll be available to play so its not fair on the TO or my opponents) - it just seems a step too far from the open formt of {R} |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2006 - 20:46 |
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| phil78 wrote: | | The idea of a new division sounds great but the idea of CR only counting in tourneys seems an unfair idea as there are probably plenty of people for who their CR is meaningful but aren't able to commit to scheduled tournaments (I know I'd enter more [U] events but never know when I'll be available to play so its not fair on the TO or my opponents) - it just seems a step too far from the open formt of {R} |
You have got a point here.
One way would be to have one open division for casual LFG and another open division for a ranking system with strictly enforced rules (comparable to playing chess in order to win/gain reputation). |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2006 - 20:54 |
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| Smess wrote: | | Karhumies wrote: |
The problem of ranked: <b>Having ranking-oriented and casual play lumped into a single FUMBBL division creates a huge problem.</b>
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I dont' consider this is a problem, I consider it the strongest aspect of ranked. I love the diversity there is in this division: ANY type of coach can be found here, and that is how it should be imo. I don't want to play competative coaches all the time, and I don't want to play casual coaches all the time eiher. |
This is what the ranking-oriented coaches see as a problem and - based on what I have heard - is at the same time against the original idea of creating the ranked division: forming a fool-proof method of strictly ranking the FUMBBL coaches into an order, with Unranked for casual play. Casual play was never intended to happen in Ranked, hence the TS limitations and whatnot to make one's life at least a bit more difficult compared to a non-CR division.
| Smess wrote: | | By the way, as usual when you split people up in two categories, it might be usefull, but is inacurrate. It should be seen as a continuum, because most people will be somewhere in between those categories, and the difference between two categories is not always that clear (example: you also have women who are trapped in a man's body, etc. ). |
You are correct in this. I divided the coaches roughly into two opposite sections because the players in the opposite ends are the most likely to be unhappy in the current situation. I presume the coaches in the middle - such as you - would adapt to just about any kind of situation and be able to have fun their own way nonetheless. However, Ranked was not (is not?) supposed to be such a division as it currently is, which <b>is</b> a problem all by itself. |
Last edited by Karhumies on %b %25, %2006 - %20:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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Jan 25, 2006 - 20:54 |
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| Karhumies wrote: | | I will happily cross-link our threads, as the main point is essentially the same. |
Exactly: you have (in essence) the same goal in mind - so it would be a shame if <i>neither</i> made progress because of confusion and dispersal of effort between the two. |
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torsoboy
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2006 - 20:56 |
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I like Ranked, because it has a good mix of casual and competitive coaches. I would hate to see Ranked devoid of "fun" teams and everybody picking the same teams and same skills because they are the best (yes, I believe that some teams are inherently stronger than the rest, just as some skill picks are better than others). There was a league that consisted of only fun, purposely neutered teams, and it was the worst gaming experience I ever had.
Do you want to get rid of ranking? Fine, I suppose a statistics table that shows the average win %, the average win % over last month, and the sum of TR/TS differences could do ok as an indication of coach skill.
edit: ok, I've read the comments above this one now, still, my argument stands. If you want a pure skill test division, it will devolve into everyone picking the same few teams and skills. |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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Jan 25, 2006 - 21:01 |
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To give a practical example of the problem at hand: ( taken from #fumbbl on irc.fumbbl.com , the timestamps are GMT +2)
Parts/joins as well as LFGs and unrelated remarks have been removed.
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:00] <Karhumies> please read and reply to the following thread about the ranked division and its structure: Read & reply: http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=121175
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:00] <Karhumies> I made a group for coaches who do not want to play in Ranked at all because of the existence of CR
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:00] <Carmella> who cares about CR ?
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:01] <excalibur> ME
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:01] <SammyJ> If you don't like CR just ignore it
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:01] <Carmella> yeah, that's about it
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:02] <TheSquig> the problem is, other coaches dont ignore CR
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:02] <Carmella> so
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:02] <TheSquig> it affects your own game
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:02] <Carmella> ignore them
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:02] <Carmella> play games for the sake of playing
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:02] <Carmella> and if they refuse games because of CR, that's their loss
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:02] <TheSquig> play games for fun I say
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:05] <Karhumies> {Wed, 25. Jan}[21:01] <SammyJ> If you don't like CR just ignore it <- some people DO care and for them, Ranked has failed as a division because it does not produce accurate rankings of coach "betterness". It IS a problem.
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:06] <Carmella> Karhumies : no, i don't see where that IS a problem for YOU if OTHERS care
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:06] <Karhumies> {Wed, 25. Jan}[21:02] <Carmella> and if they refuse games because of CR, that's their loss <-wouldn't it be easier for you to get games if the CR wussies would have their own division instead?
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:06] <Carmella> well, no
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:06] <Carmella> if they have their own divison, it just means less players in ranked
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:07] <deathgerbil> can't we keep that crap in the forums where we can all safely ignore that forum post like it has the plague?
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:07] <Eghost-away> why not play in unranked if you don't care about CR
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:07] <Eghost-away> cr is the last thing people worry about anyway
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:08] <SammyJ> Karhumies: I wouldn't play BloodBowl if it wasn't for CR
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:08] <Carmella> +1 Eghost
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:08] <shadow46x2-werk> um
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:08] <shadow46x2-werk> no
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:08] <shadow46x2-werk> wrong
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:09] <shadow46x2-werk> heck for that matter.....pick any name out of the top 50 coaches, and i would bet a majority don't play coaches below a certain CR, because they don't want to run the risk of "getting beaten by luck" and having their precious CR ranking hurt
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:09] <pac> thing about CR: you can't ignore it if you want to - it's there in big letters on every coach's page
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:10] <spelledaren> I second deathgerbil : keep it to the forums...plz?
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:10] <Carmella> shadow46x2 : and where is that a problem for you ?
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:10] <Carmella> that's their loss |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2006 - 21:06 |
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{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:10] <shadow46x2-werk> it's not a problem for me because i don't play coaches with high cr's, because i have a bruised enough ego as it is :-p
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:10] <shadow46x2-werk> but...
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:10] <Eghost-away> right, I'm top 50, I don't care except being slaughtered by silly claw/rsc and fouled to death
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:11] <shadow46x2-werk> yes, eghost, and i'm sure you, alone, are the majority
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:11] <shadow46x2-werk> 1 out of 50 does not equal majority
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:11] <shadow46x2-werk> try again
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:11] <Britnoth> ooho CR argument
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:11] * Britnoth jumps up and down.
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:11] <shadow46x2-werk> carmella: where the problem *DOES* lie...is coaches who will play anyone, have their pool of potential opponents limited because *OTHER* coaches restrict who they play
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:12] * shadow46x2-werk fouls Britnoth
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:12] <Eghost-away> whats the problem with playing in unranked if you don't like cr?
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:12] <Carmella> soooo where is that a problem ?
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:12] <Britnoth> cant get games
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:12] <shadow46x2-werk> think about it this way....
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:12] <Britnoth> because ranked is the 'official' main league.
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:12] <Carmella> if thes eother coach go play in another division, they will NOT play your anyway
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:12] <Fama> Yeah, it can be tough to get games in unranked, since there is usually 1 team around you, if any. If they decline, good luck finding a game.
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:13] <shadow46x2-werk> you have 100 coaches you can play against....say 20 of those coaches decide to not play you because your coach ranking is too low....that means there's only 80 coaches left to play....thus limiting the opportunities to play games, etc etc blah blah blah
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:13] <Carmella> yeah shadow46x2
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:13] <Carmella> and now listen
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:14] <Carmella> if you make a division for them
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:14] <Carmella> you'll still have 80 coaches to play against
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:14] <Carmella> not 100
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:14] <Carmella> as they will go in their place
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:14] <Carmella> and you won't have more oppos anyway, for that matters
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:14] <excalibur> no you have more team
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:14] <Carmella> why more teams?
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:14] <shadow46x2-werk> so then get rid of CR instead
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:14] <Carmella> why ?
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:14] <shadow46x2-werk> no excal, carmel is right
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:14] <shadow46x2-werk> :-p
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:14] <Carmella> if players pîpck because of their CR they are just loosy and i'm not interested in playing them
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:14] <shadow46x2-werk> not going to have more teams...just a higher percentage of coaches you can play against
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:14] <Carmella> that's it.
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:15] <excalibur> 5 in ranked and second 5 in CR div
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:15] <Carmella> the percentage is pointless.
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:15] <shadow46x2-werk> i don't disagree
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:15] <pac> right: i think the people who said 'keep it to the forums' may have had a point
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:15] <pac> this is blurring before my eyes now!
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:15] <pac> and that's not _just_ because i'm still hungover! |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2006 - 21:08 |
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{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:21] <deathgerbil> if you want to be sadistic, you can give yourself a pretty crappy cr, then play a tourney. get lucky and have a nice forced game against a high cr person, and you can really kill their cr
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:21] <deathgerbil> took a few people's cr down 7-8 points in a single game
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:21] <shadow46x2-werk> i like your frame of thinking
{Wed, 25. Jan}[21:21] <shadow46x2-werk> i should try that |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2006 - 21:13 |
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| torsoboy wrote: | | -- If you want a pure skill test division, it will devolve into everyone picking the same few teams and skills. |
I don't want one. The ones struggling to raise their CR to the max do. Why not let them have one and see for themselves if it's good or not? Currently, most of them are angry 'cause they don't have one for the time being. |
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