| Poll |
| Should your always use your freedom of speech |
| Yes freedom of sppech is so importent that one should alwayes speek ones mind. |
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61% |
[ 132 ] |
| No you should not use your freedom of speech to insult people. |
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38% |
[ 82 ] |
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| Total Votes : 214 |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:37 |
 
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| BigMac wrote: | | As far as the cartoons go i cannot see the insult. There is no insult. |
The content of the cartoons is not the insult. The fact that they depict Muhammad is an insult. You are not allowed to create depictions of the Prophet - this is one of the prime edicts of Islam.
On the holocaust issue - if I were to tell you that grass is purple, and that I saw this man juggling three five-ton elephants the other day, should I go to jail? I don't think so.
You cannot justify one instance of freedom of speech and condemn another in the same breath. Of course it's easy to prove that these people are lying, so why bother making it illegal specifically. |
_________________
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. |
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HollowOne
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:37 |
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| BigMac wrote: | | As far as the cartoons go i cannot see the insult. There is no insult. |
Uh, are we talking about the same cartoons?
I find it funny how, on the one hand, you defend the imprisonment of Holocaust denial because it might cause offense to people who suffered due to the Holocaust, yet fail to see how those cartoons might offend muslims who have suffered due to Western imperialism. |
_________________
A censor is a man who knows more than he thinks you ought to. - Granville Hicks |
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MiBasse
Joined: Dec 04, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:38 |
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| brownrob wrote: |
The reaction may have been extreme, but <b>the Danes</b> did show disrespect to the muslims, who do thake their faith very seriously, sometimes humour doesnt cross the cultural barriers very easily.
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Stop! Full breaks!
It was in fact not "the Danes". It was a Danish <b>newspaper</b>.
It would be the same thing if I had said that "the Irish" blew up the English (and each other) when it was in fact the IRA - an independent branch that has nothing to do with the feelings or acts of the rest of the population.
As a side-note: When confronted with the fact that most of the Arab countries that are at the moment infuriated at this incident do in fact themselves have at least one media that publically display blatant anti-semetism and incourage the killing of Jews (and whatnot), the leaders of those very countries told the world press the exact same thing that our [sarcasm]dear[/sarcasm] primeminister told them - that though they might not agree upon the views expressed by these <b>independent</b> medias there was nothing they could do due to the freedom of speech.
I also think that it's a shame that so many lies have been used during this whole episode. A small minority of the Danish muslims known as the Islamic Community of Faith went to the Middle East in late December. They represented themselves as the face of the Danish Muslim community which they were in fact not. They also showed pictures of the Prophet Muhammed that had never been posted in the Danish newspaper and they also spread rumours of public burnings of the Khoran (which had of course never taken place). People have been misled, misinformed and abused to fuel the interests of other people. |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:45 |
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This is something from a different forum, that I feel like reposting here. Actually I'll repost two posts. All those that start bashing "The Muslims" right now fall in the same trap than those listening to the radicals on the other side do. The first of the two posts was before the attacks on the embassies the second after them.
| Mnemon's first post on a different forum wrote: | | Someone wrote: | Read this morning on foxnews.com:
The remainder of the article talks about how Palestinian gunmen broke into hotels and apartments looking for foreigners to kidnap and terrorize in retaliation for the cartoons. Absoluting disgusting. Looking at it from the outside, it is very difficult not to view Palestine as anything but a cesspool of terrorism, fascism, and brutality. |
Please excuse me for not putting "the West" or "Islam" or any of the countries/regions mentioned below into quotation marks. They should be.
I've recently visited both Palestine and Israel - travelling on bicycle - talking to various political and social organisations on both sides, visiting refuge camps and the like.
Some simple words - stop reading foxnews. The everyday people in Palestine that I did meet where helpful, open and friendly. This doesn't mean this is a society that is not patriarchal or that is overly democratic, it is not a country that is overly aware of ecologic issues. It was no problem whatsoever, however, for my female companion and myself to travel through this area. I've met a lot of quite educated people and a good number of people that were frustrated (on either side of the fence, though the more liberal voices I heard where the Palestinian ones) with religious politics. The level of English spoken in Palestine is quite high, higher then in my home country, and the education level extends to both genders.
There are, by the way, a good number of Christian Palestinians, specifically in Bethlehem/Hebron and the like. I've encountered a UK Methodist congregation working side by side with Palestinians in the Olive Groves. I've been invited to watch a Palestinian dancers practise and perform for their European tour - these where women and men that openly danced in a manner that a lot of more "fundamental" Christians would have problems with. Forget the shit in the official newspapers. If one goes by anything one reads about the western world (and that goes for our own newspapers just as much) I'd bet you'd have an incredible negative perspective on what our countries are like, too.
I went over there, specifically to get my own subjective impressions and not just sit in front of the box. I can understand (but I don't condone or appreciate or think it is a good reaction) why these suicide bombings happen. I can understand why the Jews think they are in danger. But to reduce the problem to religions colliding or perspectives colliding is stupid. It's about politics, and as in close to any other country most of the politics and decisions are not made by the every day person. If you've seen the utter in the face way that the Israel state DOES present its power and might, you can understand why the Hamas won the election. Let me state, again, that I don't think it'll do them any good, nor do I think many of those I met (I am in no way stupid enough to believe that I got an objective presentation of all Palestinians ... I've not been to Gaza, either) are radicals.
I don't feel like arguing, and while I do have more to say on the subject I don't believe in preaching. There is bad shit (TM) happening from both sides, from all political parties involved and from all religious sides.
Apart from the Palestine issue that came up here, now, some words on the caricatures. Yes we have a right of free speech, but - and that is to me the major cultural achievement of the west - we also have the declaration of human rights. Here are some paragraphs from that:
Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act toward one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
[...]
Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
[...]
Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
[...]
Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practise, worship and observance.
Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
[...]
Article 22.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realisation, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organisation and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
[And many articles that follow.]
I consider this to be the ultimate standard and statement of what the West has to offer to the world, and these statements are considered to extend to all of humanity. So yes, we have a right for freedom of speech, but as article one points out all humans are considered to be the same. There is no right to insult others however. This goes both ways. It doesn't hurt us, in the West to say sorry (and that doesn't mean spreading the comics further insisting on the "hahaha, in your face we can say this" [which is how it will be received] ) and likewise it shouldn't hurt those of the Muslim countries to step up and simply accept an excuse (there was one printed in Arabic in those Danish newspapers) and drop the insane reaction that followed.
I think as these above values originated in the West it is fair to be measured by them - and in that respect we have a lot of things to take care of. Yes, things are worse elsewhere maybe, but from what I see the West is moving away from realising these 30 articles more and more lately. The wise man doesn't demand others to do better, she/he sets an example. I think you'll find agreement with that in close to any of the major religions. Yes a lot of things went wrong with those comics, but to go in that childish mode of making it a black and white issue (that is happening on either side) is specifically the type of thing I'd wish humans to evolve away from.
I think it is a little funny that there are complains that the Islamic world doesn't separate between the various Germanic/Scandinavian countries, whereas we quite frequently didn't really distinguish between the Muslim ones. Stop putting people in boxes. Right now the only thing that is strengthened, or defended or benefits from this is increasing racism - on both sides - while the media debate about political correctness and similar. I bet it ain't fun being a Muslim living in Denmark right now. I bet it ain't fun being from a Western country and living in one of the Islamic ones right now.
And that quite frankly is the only problem. People are taking politics/religion and their own "national pride" (what else is that reaction by all those bloggers, I beg your pardon?) much to serious. Anyone that committed a crime here is to blame, on either side. I hope for every rational person that doesn't think he/she has a right or needs to trample on others opinions and sensibilities to speak up a little. Further escalation ... is just quite simply inane.
-Mnemon |
| Mnemon's second post on a different forum wrote: | | Someone quoting Mnemon wrote: | | Quote: | | I think it is a little funny that there are complains that the Islamic world doesn't separate between the various Germanic/Scandinavian countries, whereas we quite frequently didn't really distinguish between the Muslim ones. |
Err, true, I myself am not very good at seperating one Muslim country from another in this crisis, partly because most of the Muslim countries boycotted my country's wares, and so I speak about Muslim countries as a whole. Certainly you must agree, that you should at least try to distinguish which country you threaten with suicide bombings, and which countries had nothing to do with it. |
Eh? All Muslim countries? Are you sure you can back that up? What about for, let's say Bosnia? Or Malaysia? Or Qatar? Or Bahrain? Or Kazakhstan? As I said - just as we are lumping together all sorts of countries as "Muslims" they lump us together as "The West". Where's the difference between the declaration of the "Axis of Evil" and without much thought declaring countries like Sweden, Germany, Norway to be responsible despite them (almost ... they are by now) utterly unrelated to the actual event in this case?
This is not about the comics. It's been going on and brewing since so long, it's just unbelievable many don't see it. The comics just added fuel to those that search excuses, on both sides. If you think there is no anti-Muslim behaviour in Europe/USA etc, you should open your eyes. Of course not between those that know each other, or when a person becomes more then just a name and a religion, but someone "obviously" Muslim of origin will have a harder time, then those that aren't in our societies. But the same goes for the other side - I am sure there where Muslims working at the embassys in all sorts of roles, and I doubt they'd been involved in the attacks. As long as you anonymize people and don't see them as what they are - humans - the radical forces win.
I am not talking about the obvious in your face racism, you know. But the every day person will meet the stranger with caution, and the one that he/she perceives as Muslim in a European/American setting even more so. If you think that doesn't have an effect, or that something like the unconscious doesn't exist, then I lose this argument right away of course  .
-Mnemon |
By the way ... for all interested here's the full text of the declaration of Human Rights: I think everybody should re-read and think about them once in a while.
-Mnemon |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:47 |
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sorry mate, i was only typing fast! yeah i meant the newspaper, ive met people from trinidad etc who though i was in the IRA when they met me for the first time!
sorry redfish! forgive my slip! |
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RC
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:49 |
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Mabe then they should stop reading a Danish speaking Newspapers if they can not understand Danish humor, that paper is written for people that are aware that it includes radical cartoons. If Newsweek magazine did a similar story would there be a general outrage, don't think so since they have had political cartoons about similar items.. mabe not Muhammed but alot of Arabs with bombs.
Now a small newspaper in a small country is doing this and since it is a country without any military power and limited political one the political pressures that the moslem world can bear upon it is very significant.
I just belive that religious leaders are using this incident to fire up people and further their own means i.e more power to them and to their church. |
_________________
"Oh, you hate your job? Why didn't you say so? There's a support group for that. It's called EVERYBODY, and they meet at the bar." |
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Buur
Joined: Apr 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:50 |
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@redfish yes the hole situation has been exploited politicaly by all sides...... But still i dont get why oh why we should risk facing the wrath of the moslems in the world, just so "Jyllands Posten" can bring some drawings of Mohhamed....
that is for me like pissing of bikers in a bar.... (well i know there are people that gets their nose broken every weekend for this too, but i dont get that either  )
-Buur |
_________________
For most people, reason is nothing but their own believes. |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 14:03 |
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| RonnieColeman wrote: | | Mabe then they should stop reading a Danish speaking Newspapers if they can not understand Danish humor, that paper is written for people that are aware that it includes radical cartoons. |
Deadpan argument. How about "Maybe then they should stop making fun of a religion if they can not understand the conventions of that religion."
Stop the Black and White thinking - everyone is responsible for their actions - and that goes for both sides. This is not about any fucking political correctness, but the image you send to people. The one that was send by the Danish newspapers was bad, just as (obviously) the return reaction was.
Shouldn't we the "enlightened" West be a little wiser then this, by now?
-Mnemon |
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 14:03 |
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| HollowOne wrote: | | BigMac wrote: | | As far as the cartoons go i cannot see the insult. There is no insult. |
Uh, are we talking about the same cartoons?
I find it funny how, on the one hand, you defend the imprisonment of Holocaust denial because it might cause offense to people who suffered due to the Holocaust, yet fail to see how those cartoons might offend muslims who have suffered due to Western imperialism. |
The issue with Holocaust denial is that you can rally people behind such statements, and start to burn jewish churches and shops once again. There is latent hatred against "the jews" and fueling that is a crime. When you see Nazi dudes in the USA, you might think "hahaha" funny bunch of weirdos's; When you see them in germany it's downright scary.
As far as the cartoons go, the simple truth is, these people are stone-age. They and their culture is 200 years or so behind ours. If we were as primitive as them, we'd simply start a new crusade to conquer Jerusalem back...
Personally, i have had enough. Iran for examle, bring it on then. If those primates think we are going to sit back and watch them build nukes while at the same time they make it a priority to whipe israel of the face of the earth - have it your way then. I'm the first to join in in Bush-bashing and critizising the United States and their arrogance and all of the shit they are up to. But if you have primates setting the german culture-center in palestina on fire (which was build with my tax money) because a danish newspaper that has no weight what so ever has printed some shit then fun has come to an end.
I can tell you if they tried to burn turkish flags and embassys - the turks would gun them down. I have seen that before. |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 14:04 |
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| Buur wrote: | | @redfish yes the hole situation has been exploited politicaly by all sides...... But still i dont get why oh why we should risk facing the wrath of the moslems in the world, just so "Jyllands Posten" can bring some drawings of Mohhamed.... |
Because if we can't publish cartoons of Muhammad because of political pressure, then we accept that we allow other people to dictate our actions. And yes, we do that anyway - we follow a set of laws, after all, and if we break them we get fined or go to jail. But this falls outside that set of laws. This is different. This is like a bully beating you up because he doesn't like what you're saying. And no, Saudi Arabia et al are not the only countries guilty of trying to pull things like this off.
This is no longer about some random newspaper publishing a bunch of stupid cartoons. Actually it's not even about free speech anymore, just one more thing being used to fuel the clash between "East" and "West". My points, though, stand. |
_________________
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 14:07 |
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| BigMac wrote: | As far as the cartoons go, the simple truth is, these people are stone-age. They and their culture is 200 years or so behind ours. If we were as primitive as them, we'd simply start a new crusade to conquer Jerusalem back...
[references to primates etc deleted] |
With the inherent hipocrisy and racism in your posts, arguing with you is futile - not that you have ever showed yourself capable of listening to reason at any point in the past. Ever.
Now let's please lose the racism. It's against the rules of these boards (and yes that infringes your right of free speech, but you agreed to the rules so we all abide by them to keep this a friendly community). |
_________________
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Last edited by Mezir on %b %05, %2006 - %14:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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f_alk
Joined: Sep 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 14:07 |
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\me applauds Mnemon.
Very well said. It is a scaring general develoment that things are more and more seen as black-or-white-only.
All Germans were Nazis? I had hoped we were over that, but no:
"all muslims are terrorists" (heard before this caricature issue on a mainly US populated board, defended by the mod as "this is not racism but an often encountered (in the US) and thus valid stance)
"all danes have to ask for excuse"
"all palestines are suicide bombers"
etc. etc.
I am not sure when it became much more acceptable to let prejudices and over-generalisations rule supreme over ratio, facts and logic. I hate to see it though. |
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Smess
Joined: Feb 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 14:07 |
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FREEDOM OF SPEECH!
It definatly is one of the most important rights of all human kind.
<b>You have the right to make fun of everything, yes everyting.</b> |
Last edited by Smess on %b %05, %2006 - %14:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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Brad
Joined: May 16, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 14:08 |
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Freedom of Speach is always championed by both sides to enable whatever version of "truth" they find easisest to digest - And Tragically, as with any news - Truth becomes the first casualty. -- Tragically, any discussion on "Freedom of Speach" tends to overshadow "The Truth of the message"
Whilst everyone here has an opinion on whether the cartoons are inflamatory, vindictive, or just funny - no one has commented on whether they may actually have an element of Truth.
Despite the religion built around him, we are speaking of cartoons about one who led not only conquests, but led rading parties against caravans, and firstly taxed - then expelled other religions, sometimes at sword point. (I am aware of the justifications raised by both sides - plz dont sidetrack the discussion). <b>May</b> it not be possible that in the 20th century, only the weapons have changed - and there was an <b>element</b> of truth in the cartoons?
I'm not defending the papers - I feel that it was unwise to publish what they did. But can we judge freedom of speach <b>before</b> we judge its accuracy?
Just a second thought - How can Muslims, who prohibit the depiction of Muhammad, then take a stand one side or the other on freedom of speach? |
_________________
He who dies with the most toys.... Is still dead |
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HollowOne
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 14:08 |
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| BigMac wrote: | | As far as the cartoons go, the simple truth is, these people are stone-age. They and their culture is 200 years or so behind ours. If we were as primitive as them, we'd simply start a new crusade to conquer Jerusalem back... |
Wow. Wow. You are a racist, and part of the problem, not part of the solution. |
_________________
A censor is a man who knows more than he thinks you ought to. - Granville Hicks |
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