Academy Division, How Sad !!!
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| Poll |
| Shoould Academy teams be allowed to move to unranked... |
| No |
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50% |
[ 97 ] |
| Yes |
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50% |
[ 97 ] |
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| Total Votes : 194 |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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 Posted:
May 19, 2006 - 21:30 |
 
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Meech
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
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| Posted:
May 19, 2006 - 21:34 |
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I have to give Imerkol credit. That team looks just plain fun to play against. |
_________________
Putting the FU in fumbbl since 9/2005 |
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Keravin
Joined: Apr 21, 2006
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| Posted:
May 19, 2006 - 21:40 |
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Not specifically geared to screw over newbies though. |
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MightyQuinn
Joined: Jan 13, 2004
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| Posted:
May 19, 2006 - 21:43 |
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Well pretty soon he'll have only himself to play with...
This is on reason I started this thread as I watch a player get abused to the point he didnt want to play and was leaving FUMBBL... Are people trying to make this a secluded place to play for a certain few...
I have no problem if the higher rated coaches play against other high rated coaches in [A] and games like that are played, but doing something like this to someone who hasnt played many games, some still trying to get use to the client is just wrong...
I though the purpose of [A] was to help newbies learn, teach them tactics, answer questions and show them the errors of their ways... Its strange how higher rated coaches bring their big egos to [A] and still play to win and destroy...
My [A] team, Nurgle's Rotters, are all beastmen, was to help newbies get acustomed to the cleint and will be only playing newbies... I may not be the best rated coach, but I do spend the time helping others unlike some...
A suggestion to all newbies, before accepting games, read about the coach, look at his rating, read his info and look at some of his teams, take time to read any match reports if you can...
If you dont like the way the game is going in [A] conceed and find another opponent, make a new team if needed... I dont believe in conceeding but since it's [A] it doesnt really matter...
If you see a team in [A] with more then 1 dirty player, heck, even 1 dirty player, just avoid it... People can teach you how to foul with out the dirty player skill...
There are good coaches who will help out, just need to find them and when you do, you'll learn, enjoy the game and find which division you want to play in and enjoy yourself... |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
May 19, 2006 - 21:47 |
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| Keravin wrote: |
Not specifically geared to screw over newbies though. |
Of course the beginning of this match http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&op=view&id=578867 was followed in the chat room by comments like. "Some Noob just accepted a game with Wuhan", and "Let's watch him cry!".
My point was not that anyone is particularily kind, but that the lesson will need to be learned. Players Die. Teams die. Other coaches play for different reasons. Macavity rules all.
The sooner you learn those lessons, the happier you willl be. Especially the last one. |
_________________
When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis |
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celas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 19, 2006 - 22:02 |
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I think the value/use of a DP/harming skills can be demonstrated without having a totally one-dimensional team full of killers and DPs & Ramtut while playing down in TS. It seems like a painful lesson to learn (i.e., waste an hour of time as someone gratifies themself with a foul every turn) and it not reflective of ranked except for perhaps a handful of coaches on fumbbl who most people already know about (and probably avoid). |
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Northern Wastes League |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 19, 2006 - 22:03 |
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They'll learn no matter which way.
As I said in chat the only thing this really does is making people feel this is a lousy place filled with assholes, and stop playing all together. This is not just bad for the newbie, but for the image Fumbbl creates with someone that just joined. As an introduction to the community it is simply better for them to find people that assist them and help them along.
They'll learn that their teams and players will die, but if they at least have games and people to remember as being helpful, they'll not be alienated from the community - which will happen if you are picked upon in a place that is specifically advertised as a safe ground and where help is to be found.
-Mnemon |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
May 19, 2006 - 22:07 |
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I'd like to point out a few things:
1) If A teams wouldn't be allowed to move into U, practically no one would make any new A teams. In the end, even newbies would abandon A, as it would be so hard to LFG (it is rather hard at times even as we speak).
2) If A teams wouldn't progress, the whole division would be without a point. Newbies need to learn skill development, planning ahead player purchases, replacing multiple nigglers and -ST gimps etc. It's all an important part of the game.
3) Currently, there is not much point to make a TR 100 U team, since you can make a TR 100 A team and after a few games transfer it into U. Reasons: team is more likely to survive the first match without apoth in A, A teams do not count towards the limitation on U slots (you don't have to delete 1 U team to make room for the new team unless it actually survives its first few matches in A to be transferred), one can try out a new race in A and if it doesn't work, just delete the team.
Then a few of my own opinions:
1) I like to help out new coaches and for this, the A division is great. I can just put my team into gamefinder or check the LFG A teams around (along with coach CR) to see if there's someone around to be helped. It's easy for both the newbie and the veteran to find another - especially as many FUMBBL newbies are computer newbies who don't know how to connect to IRC. I have arranged many A matches through FUMBBL site PMs, one of which lead to me teaching him the basics of IRC as well. 
2) I like to try out new races. For this, A division is great. If I was to make a TR 100 Av 7 team into U, the team would be crushed unless I knew exactly how to play with it. In general, U matches are fierce compared to A division IMO. In A, I can afford not to take apothecary for the first match without getting crushed (I am helping new players learn the basics instead of facing an experienced mauler coach who are over-presented in U), giving me higher FF at TR 100->more money usable for team development.
3) I like casual matches which won't affect my ranking. For this, the A division is great. I can accept challenges which are unfavourable for me or try out weird team concepts (e.g. All Skeletons) to give the newbies a handicap. +1 Fun Factor.
However, there are also negative sides to Academy division as it is:
1) There are many user-generated, fixed TR [U] tournaments around. For these, one needs to develop his tournament team versus the softest possible opponent so that the coach can field all players in prime condition with as many double rolls in the roster as possible (players fired and replaced until enough players have doubles on 1st or 2nd roll) for the tournament. For such munchkinly plays, A division is definitely the best choice around. Easy CAS and TD SPPs, no CR affected.
2) It's hard to distinguish between a veteran FUMBBL cherrypicker and a veteran FUMBBL newbie helper in the #FumbblAcademy channel. New players don't yet know the good & famous coaches by name, neither do they know who are the bad cherry pickers to be avoided at all costs. Giving voice or ops in the channel could help, though I doubt that many newbies would recognize the effects of these status changes as many FUMBBL newbies are also IRC newbies. Nevertheless, something needs to be done about this. <b>Give me your suggestions!</b>
3) <b>FUMBBL coaches abusing newbies is WRONG.</b> The community must be corrupted for people to do such things. We need a general face lift and a return of ethics into FUMBBL. It's not always about making enemies (roughly equal to winning); sometimes making friends is more important.
4) LFG in Academy is rather hard even at the moment. <b>We need more teams into Academy division! Join now!</b> |
_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague |
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Meech
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
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| Posted:
May 19, 2006 - 22:24 |
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Frankly Maca, I think that is BS. All but the last point. Yes players and teams die. Doesn't mean that new players learning about playing on Fumbbl need to be beaten into non existence. I thought the main point behind academy wsa teaching players new to fumbbl the different parts of the client while welcoming them in to the community. What could possibly have been said in those games? "Stunned is almost as good in this instance, it sets up next turns foul!"
I understand what you are saying, but casualties are going to happen without 6 or 7 DP's. |
_________________
Putting the FU in fumbbl since 9/2005 |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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| Posted:
May 19, 2006 - 22:46 |
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It's Imerikol's perogative to teach anything he wants in [A] for any reason he chooses. His set of tactics and bloodbowl philosophies may be different than yours, but are equal in validity. Don't like it? Then participate more in [A] and #fumbblacademy. Only your involvement will "save" new coaches from the "wolves". If you have no [A] team and don't chat in #fumbblacademy to new coaches....you have no ground to complain about what others are doing.
Where would you like new coaches to learn about cherrypicking and hard core team destruction...in [A] or in [R]. choose one, cuz it's going to happen. My first game against a brand new coach on turn 1 I got the ref....I showed him what that's about.
Because of Brownrob's comments, I've made a thrall team in Academy and have played 3 times. I would like to eventually move the team to U so it's not all a waste of time. Don't take away the option to move into [U], "teachers" require some form of compensation or they just won't bother with it.
With that being said, I think div[A] needs no changing and overall is an incredible new asset to this community. |
_________________
Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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celas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 19, 2006 - 22:57 |
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"Where would you like new coaches to learn about cherrypicking and hard core team destruction...in [A] or in [R]. choose one, cuz it's going to happen. "
It's that kind of attitude that says it's ok for it to happen. Well, it's going to happen so why not now....I would go so far as to say that many people feel the same with a lot of social ills, like being teased, encountering racism, etc. but I do realize we are talking about a game here. I am not saying you need to shelter new people, but if you understand how to teach someone a new skill, you do not include the use of punitive techiques. You give them plenty of "teachable opportunities" which is not possible when you do not have a team on the field for half of the game. Reinforcement will always be more effective than punishment.
I think you don't have to play Academy to be able to comment on it. Is it really that different of a game? Do I have to play a newbie there to be able to understand what a team full of DPs will do?
And yes, I would rather have people encounter this type of cherrypicking in R. If I signed up for an online game and was told to make a team in a division designed to help me learn, then I would hope to not have to spend time watching someone else demonstrate the foul button every turn or remake a team in A and wait for approval because someone destroyed my team.
It's just my opinion. |
_________________
Northern Wastes League |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
May 19, 2006 - 23:05 |
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| Macavity wrote: | | My point was not that anyone is particularily kind, but that the lesson will need to be learned. |
Really, I'm very sorry that everyone seems to think I was condoning the behaviour, or that [A] is the place to learn it. I wasn't, and I don't. I guess I read my posts differently......  |
_________________
When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis |
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Karhumies
Joined: Oct 17, 2004
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| Posted:
May 19, 2006 - 23:17 |
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Learning that some people like to play it rough is not a lesson wasted.
Nevertheless, I'd prefer the veteran to at least comment on how he's doing it so well to be effective game-wise. |
_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
May 19, 2006 - 23:37 |
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Okay, now that we've established that Imerikol is evil ... 
Experienced coaches may go to [A] for a number of reasons, including:
1) To help teach newbies how to play
2) To try out a new team or team development idea
3) To beat the !@£$ out of newbie teams in order to build a team to use in a [U] tournament
4) To beat the !@£$ out of newbie teams simply to satisfy their own 'evilness', or something ...
Now, as long as there is an Academy, we can't do anything about number 4 - and any coach accused of doing number 4 can claim that this is just something else that needs teaching. As Arktoris put it: 'It's Imerikol's perogative to teach anything he wants in [A] for any reason he chooses.'
However, I don't believe that there are <i>really</i> that many coaches who would do number 4 - far, far more are likely to be attracted by number 3: building a team for [U].
| Karhumies wrote: | | There are many user-generated, fixed TR [U] tournaments around. For these, one needs to develop his tournament team versus the softest possible opponent so that the coach can field all players in prime condition with as many double rolls in the roster as possible (players fired and replaced until enough players have doubles on 1st or 2nd roll) for the tournament. For such munchkinly plays, A division is definitely the best choice around. Easy CAS and TD SPPs, no CR affected. |
This is a <i>far</i> more serious abuse than someone running a fouling team (and keeping it in [A]). Not only because it could spoil [U] tournaments, but because (as a strategy that works) it will attract more people to do it, causing more problems in [A].
So: we want experienced coaches in [A] - most will agree that you learn faster playing against good opponents than against poor ones - but only for reasons 1 and 2, not for 3 or 4. We can't do anything about 4 (without excluding experienced coaches entirely), but something <i>could</i> be done about 3 by - as has already been suggested on more than one occasion - preventing a coach from moving a team out of [A] if that coach has (for example) played more than a certain total number of matches on FUMBBL.
Anyone feel like picking a number and running a poll on that one? |
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Join us in building Blood Bowl Sixth Edition.
In other news, the Hittites are back. Join us in #fumbbl.hi  |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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| Posted:
May 19, 2006 - 23:43 |
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Celas, it sounds like you'd be a good teacher....towel off and get your feline tail in the academy
my point is:
A lack of interest in playing div[A] says you don't care what's happening there....regardless of what the fingers type. A man's mouth can yap all day long, it's his actions that show what he really believes. I agree with the original post, "teachers" shouldn't just silently pound new coaches through the school of hard knocks...so I've stepped up to the plate. The biggest way to get new coaches to leave fumbbl early isn't to foul them 16 times...it's to not play them. If they can't get a game...they move on.
as for what's ok:
Some people watch NASCAR to see who wins the race....others watch to see cars wreck at 200mph. What's "ok" for some, isn't "ok" for others. Some coaches loath foulfests, others loath elfball...both claiming it's against the spirit of the game. What is universally "bad" would be universally banned by Christer, the BBRC, or Skijunkie. |
_________________
Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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