Posted by asteflix on 2019-03-19 00:53:56

They're allowed to do so, also don't name and shame others.

Posted by koadah on 2019-03-19 01:23:37

I'd never thought much about this before. But now you mention it, waiting until the last minute is a good strategy.


Thanks for the tip.

Posted by Wozzaa on 2019-03-19 01:35:30

So you want to be given an advantage by your opponent in a tournament just because?

Posted by Dominik on 2019-03-19 02:21:22

Well of course they are allowed to wait until the very last moment, but then the coach with the team of the lower team value has all the rights to take his time, which can take, rarely, up to one hour. Furthermore, speaking only for myself, I like to think one day about inducements and team changes in tricky matches.
I'm in doubt that such a happening adds much fun to both sides.

"So you want to be given an advantage by your opponent in a tournament just because?"
Do you know the rules regarding post match sequences on FUMBBL?

Posted by MenonaLoco on 2019-03-19 02:54:38

hahahahaaa one hour? Come on...

Posted by Dominik on 2019-03-19 03:07:34

That is my business, isn't it?

Posted by robocoyote on 2019-03-19 04:35:26

I pretty much play out every scenario I can think of in advance. so I can quickly make my changes not that difficult to figure out the 2-3 things the other coach might do

Posted by cdassak on 2019-03-19 07:24:33

I agree. If you ready just before the game expect and accept a delay.

Posted by Cloggy on 2019-03-19 08:24:03

A post match sequence, pretty much like a turn of Bloodbowl should be done in about 2 minutes.

Posted by koadah on 2019-03-19 08:54:22

An hour? That sounds like "intentionally delaying the game" to me. We're supposed to allow 90 minutes for a game. Spending 60 on inducements is going to increase the chances of the game not getting done that night.

But don't mind me. I have no intention of playing Official Tournaments.

Posted by Verminardo on 2019-03-19 09:01:53

So, there is on averyge 7 days between matches. All Dominik is saying is, he would expect his opponent not to take all of those 7 days for themselves to figure out their post match decisions, then leave only 1 minute to him. That's an aboslutely fair and valid point. Then a bunch of others start posturing and ridiculing him, which is not only poor form but also poorly argued. Fumbbl holds its community in very high regard but this kind of passive aggressive BS doesn't get any less toxic just because it's sneaky and comes without swearing. It's always the same few guys and it's the reasons the forums are almost dead. /boo

Posted by Rawlf on 2019-03-19 09:08:00

Fully agree with Dominik.

Posted by awambawamb on 2019-03-19 09:09:40

don't go full party pooper. 1 hour on post match sequence should be a huge alarm

Posted by BattleLore on 2019-03-19 09:35:48

I fully agree with Dominik on the post match sequence for the higher tv coach (not on the "I take one hour for inducements" part). BUT as a lower TV player you should return the favor and end your post match sequence in a reasonable time after the higher TV player has ended his, so he can think about possible inducements for himself.

Posted by Loew on 2019-03-19 09:35:54

+1 for Dominik and Verminardo

I mean, for me it would most likely be "oh crap, I forgot to ready my team, just give me a minute"... but I can fully understand that coaches take a more strategic and considered aproach to tournaments

Posted by ArrestedDevelopment on 2019-03-19 09:53:11

Don't see why anyone is giving Dominik crap here?

On TT you'd complete your post-match sequence the second the game ended, with no hanging around to see what your opponent might be/what tv they might be.

While we don't do this here, the rules are very clear that the highest TV goes first, so just get on with it if you're the higher TV.

Posted by koadah on 2019-03-19 11:02:15

The forums are dead because there is not really much to argue about now that CPOMB is nerfed. I guess we could argue about un-nerfing it. ;)

I guess that there is a difference between "tournament players" and "people who play tournaments".

I will endeavour to remember to ready my team in "good time".

Posted by finsterface on 2019-03-19 13:20:57

<An hour? That sounds like "intentionally delaying the game" to me.>

Actually, I understand Dominik's request to ready the high-tv-team some time in advance in spirit of *not* wanting to delay the game because he would like to be able to spend quite a bit of time on *prematch-decisions* *as well* ;-)

And I agree, that would be most fair.

Posted by bghandras on 2019-03-19 13:25:57

+1 for Dominik and Verminardo. Maybe add something into the tournament rules about it?

Posted by FRSHMN on 2019-03-19 13:35:51

+1 Dominik
+2 Verminardo

And to add: this not only is true for forum activity, but on fumbbl in general. I know at least one coach, who cut his fumbbl activities down to a few well-natured leagues because of what Verminardo is pointing at.

Posted by DrDeath on 2019-03-19 17:06:47

Valid point, can see that would be irritating for the opponent. At the very least they should be ready to start at the scheduled time though - delaying 60 mins is ridiculous to ready a team?

Would add one other, I think bigger issue - once or twice I've had a 'Mexican stand-off' with the opponent, where neither wanted to ready their team first. I believe the higher tv team should always ready first, as Dominik has alluded to above - think there was a NAF rule on that? But to be fair it's not all that clear on here, and I once had a coach who didn't accept that at all. Some clarity on that would help too? The bigger team already has an advantage, I guess it should be set this way so they don't get any extra advantage by getting to react when readying their team?

Posted by MenonaLoco on 2019-03-19 18:31:08

hä? The higher tv has to ready first. tournament rules.

Posted by finsterface on 2019-03-19 18:38:13

from the official fumbbl tournament-rules:

"In the event of teams scheduled to play in any Tournament both having post game sequences uncompleted, the team with the larger TV is expected to complete their sequence first."

Posted by Jeffro on 2019-03-19 18:43:30

I have solved this issue easily by getting ousted in the first round.

Posted by Dominik on 2019-03-19 22:12:21

If you have to finish your post match sequence as the higher rated team first you could ready your team the latest one day before the match starts so that your opponent has enough time to do his considerations.
Because if you finish it on the day the match will be played and your opponent did not look on FUMBBL the whole day and was in a rush to appear in time, he has the pressure to hurry his post match sequence.

To those who reply "post match sequences are a matter of two minutes":
I enjoy thinking about an upcoming encounter and evaluate all the possible strategies and what impact on the game they might have. You regard it as wasting of time, so do I when people write fictions about their teams and give each player a personality. But who am I to judge?

Posted by Mateuszzzzzz on 2019-03-19 22:38:40

When i have played in my 1st major qualifier, long time ago i have readied my team way before final. My opponent in final got himself banned from turneys before final and i was unable to do any changes in my team before main event. Since then i (almost) always ready team when both players are online on agreed time to play. If you ask me what i intend to do before, i'll tell you (or tell you i do not know yet), but i'll not press ready button.

Posted by Chainsaw on 2019-03-20 01:01:17

Dominik is right.

That's the rule; the higher TV team readies first. If you want to start the match at an agreed time then you have to allow your opponent time to ready their team too.

Posted by Wozzaa on 2019-03-20 01:03:56

I didn't know the rule.

A very enlightening thread.

I apologise for my previous comment.

Posted by Dominik on 2019-03-20 01:08:31

@Mateusxz

Admins can re-open you post match sequence in such cases.

Posted by Amon242 on 2019-03-20 01:20:37

this is the new "4 minute turn" discussion. Seems everyone has an opinion on what it means to take over 4 minutes a turn, and everyone has an opinion on how much time you give your opponent to get ready, and in the end it doesn't really matter.

Posted by Dominik on 2019-03-20 03:02:15

You're right that it is not mandatory to ready your team x days before the deadline or x days after you are paired.
However while the coach who has to ready his team first can have days to consider his actions, the other coach may find himself in the situation to be pressed in a hurry when the opposing team got readied just before the game starts.
I do think that it matters since the second coach either does not join the game in time or has not enough time for his desire to make his considerations, ultimately resulting in a worse roster setup.

Posted by koadah on 2019-03-20 07:49:34

The coach may have days, but they don't know the other coach's roster. "As soon as possible" may be asking for days while knowing the opposing roster.

Posted by Scarlak on 2019-03-20 08:24:32

As much as playing Dom makes me want to claw my own eyes out. I’m a fast player! He is 100% right. You should know the rules and readying your team 1min before you play with a higher TV is pure gamesman ship.

Posted by CroixFer on 2019-03-20 09:23:28

I Agree with Dominik. In my own thinking 24h ahead of scheduled game should be enough for the bigger TV team to ready.

Also, I understand this might mean the lower TV player during post-game sequence can end having bigger after it. But that is acceptable to me. If that is the case, this player SHOULD also finish his own post-game as soon as possible (meaning at least 2h before the game) so both know what they can expect for the actual game and prepare for it.

Posted by Throweck on 2019-03-20 10:57:17

OK, here is my view as tournament admin.

Dominik has a great point. Vermi also makes a solid supporting comment. Bit dissapointed that this community jumps on Dom everytime even when his point is valid. Shame on you.

Now...the rule talks of the expectation for the Higher TV team to ready first. So ready first when it is possible to do so. There should be time in that 7 days to do so. If you are purposefully waiting until the last minute as some kind of underhand tactic, the admin will take this into account if any decision has to be made because, quite frankly, that's a douche move. If you have to do this to increase your chance of winning then perhaps you aren't as good as you think you are.

If I was the admin, I would give Dom an hour if he needed it. After all, he has waited 7 days for you to ready your team (or however long before the agreed time).

If there is a situation like this, invite the admins in to help us to see what is happening.

Posted by bghandras on 2019-03-20 12:37:17

If i may, i recommend to put a sentiment about it into the tournament rules even if it is not a hard rule, just a guideline. Just so people can read it, point at it, thus keep the concept afloat rather claim there is no such policy, or they forgot about it thus asking for exemption.

Posted by lautrehamon on 2019-03-20 13:00:19

Really interesting post. I guess most people didn't care about the post match sequence, other didn't know the rules at all (that was my case and I'm happy to discover it, I found people waiting to be the last to do PMS particularly irritating) and probably really few try to abuse it. ASAP, and no later than one day before the scheduled game, should be the rules for the PMS of the higher TV team. Fun case : what is the rule for same TV team ? That can happen a lot in Rookie Rumble for exemple.

Posted by koadah on 2019-03-20 13:10:42

As far as I remember, the current rule is there because, before that, we could have BOTH coaches waiting until the very last minute, then arguing over who should go first.

In almost 14 years on the site, I don't recall anyone complaining to me about my teams not being ready. I don't recall there being a requirement to ready them straight away.

I don't recall ever not readying a team because I was waiting on the opponent. But at the same time, I don't really see how it is a "douche move".

How many coaches really need more than say, 15 minutes to ready a team?
I do know some coaches that do need more time for various reasons. If that is communicated then for sure coaches would get more slack.

If the guidance is that teams should be readied at least 24 hours before a game then that should be communicated clearly on the rules pages.

Posted by Wreckage on 2019-03-20 13:45:07

Uhm, you can take your time to consider what to do befor you do it. You don't need to think about it for an hour.

Posted by Throweck on 2019-03-20 14:59:01

You can to a point Wreckage, but you don't know if the oppo is going to buy or drop players, rerolls, skills, etc. You could prepare for every scenario but that would take a lot of time when the player could just ready in good time.

Koadah - you said you don't play official tournaments anymore? :P

'But don't mind me. I have no intention of playing Official Tournaments.'

Maybe you have just been lucky with the opponents you faced. The 'act' of waiting to do it intentionally is a douche move, just to clarify what I was saying.

I will edit the rules to put in as soon as possible bit.

Posted by Throweck on 2019-03-20 15:01:31

'In the event of teams scheduled to play in any Tournament both having post game sequences uncompleted, the team with the larger TV is expected to complete their sequence first and within good time for the opponent to complete theirs before the start of the match.'

There we go...:)

Posted by koadah on 2019-03-20 15:43:07

Indeed. I don't play "Official Tournaments". But I do play leagues and tournaments. Though not that often these days.

I have also run hundreds of tournaments (yes, hundreds) and not had anyone complain about this.

I don't think it is a douche move because I don't think that you need days to prepare.

"Good time" could mean anything. ;) As far as I'm concerned it is about 15 minutes. If you mean a day, say "a day if possible".
We shouldn't have to root through the forums and old blogs for context.

Also, the last time I looked, about a third of active Fumbblers weren't playing Ranked or Box at all. I am sure that a lot of people don't use chat and don't spec Majors. they may not have the context for "always jumping on Dom" type comments.

Posted by Throweck on 2019-03-20 22:47:04

So then they will know it doesn’t apply to them. Just the people that always jump on Dom.

Posted by Endzone on 2019-03-21 00:43:19

What's the point in having people in power if they just solve the problem? We should have had the opportunity to bounce this argument around for a few more years. We didn't even get the chance to have a couple of votes (including pie). Throweck will never get a job in British politics!

Posted by awambawamb on 2019-03-22 21:58:08

the reason people have a bad idea of Dom is because of his actions on fumbbl.
maybe he changed his behavior, but most people aren't interested in playing against him anymore... now he found someone else giving a taste of what we had in part days and he stomps his feet.
you all know what?
zip your mouths.
look at the matches you have to play.
look at your team's TV.
is it the higher? ready your team.
is it not? tell your opponent; copy and paste if you can't find the words : "Hello, I see your team had a higher TV than mine. you should ready your team first so that we can play. cheers".
stay put and see what happens.
do you really need to vent out all this? C'MON

Posted by Dominik on 2019-03-22 23:54:25

awambawamb you should really stop stalking me. In every blog you write your bs about me. To the public: You were wrong with your accusations in that one and only game you played me. In fact you started the game biased and then went on to full filling your prophecy by mocking and having a bad mouth.
This one certain thing you think of me is so ridiculous that you should look into yourself and ask why you are so obsessed of it that much.

Posted by awambawamb on 2019-03-23 01:05:31

well, Dom... now everyone knows for sure.
that said, the original problem often lies in miscommunication.

Posted by Throweck on 2019-03-23 17:56:30

I don’t know for sure. All I see is an angsty awambawamb coming in to have a dig. But hey, now everyone knows for sure...whatever that means.

Posted by awambawamb on 2019-03-23 20:09:46

would you want to bother Christer asking for a automagic post match sequence? like you got 72 hours to ready your team. after that, all your teams are converted to flings. sounds good

Posted by Throweck on 2019-03-23 20:36:03

No I wouldn’t. Why would I? You just came in having a go at Dom...again. Dude, it’s really time to move on. Or is that you just jump on a band wagon?

Posted by awambawamb on 2019-03-24 02:49:12

you're clearly going OT, Throweck.
try to discuss my words instead of discussing me.
this is a public post, but looks more like a forum thread... I'm interested in this discussion.

Posted by Throweck on 2019-03-24 08:28:57

Ok let’s discuss your words.

‘You all know what? Zip your mouths’

Not sure where that sounds you are interested in discussion.

If you want to discuss, fine, discuss. But do it in a way that there is a discussion and not you belittling people for no reason.

Posted by Throweck on 2019-03-24 08:48:22

Also, you start your post by discussing Dom and not his words (Pot meet kettle). All I’m doing is calling you out on your passive aggressive BS. It’s not ok.

Maybe I’m feeding the troll.

Posted by awambawamb on 2019-03-24 11:32:06

is really the "zip your mouth" part upsetting you at the point you can't go forward? oh, how many times I've been told that... and it's not just me, really, but that's the way it is - sometimes we have to close our mouths, take advice and digest it, make it ours.
that's what should really happen here. instead of going around venting and behaving like childs just WRITE A PM.
"hey, your team should be readied first. cheers"
doesn't reply because he or she is pushing it to get that small advantage?
ADD THE TOURNAMENT ADMIN and sit back. relax. in 48h the admin usually reply.
take a deep breath, look what YOU can do to make all the gears turn. have you done everything you could? at the best of your abilities?
it's self-critic and communication.
cmon

Posted by Throweck on 2019-03-24 13:09:38

It’s more your attitude towards others. Want people to respect your views, then be respectful and not hypocritical. Anyway, if it’s that simple in your eyes, that’s great. As this thread shows, there is support for Dom’s point so perhaps it isn’t as cut and dry you make it out to be.

Posted by awambawamb on 2019-03-24 14:29:17

it's very simple and clear:
talk.
to.
your.
opponent.
you can't really do otherwise in a two-player game like BB.
if you got a prolem with writing a PM... well, it's YOUR problem.
my attitude is pretty good, with the common exception confirming the rule ;)
it's funny how you're telling me to "zip my mouth" with your words, essentially doing what you criticized in first place. talking about attitude...

Posted by Throweck on 2019-03-24 16:04:36

Please point out where I tell you to zip your mouth?

You said Dom was ranting, he isn’t. It’s a plea.

I’m asking you to consider how you confront people. Everyone has a right to say what they want. Everyone also has a right to be respected. You are only following one of these statements. It strikes me as you haven’t really understood the tone of the original post.

My attitude is fine and dandy thanks. I haven’t told a community to zip their mouths with arrogance, or berated someone trying to put a valid point out.

I don’t think you see your hypocrisy in your posts above at all. I don’t think you see what people are trying to say. I’m not willing to flog a dead horse.

Sometimes we have to close our mouths, take advice and digest it. I couldn’t agree more Sir. :p

Posted by awambawamb on 2019-03-24 17:12:36

you never typed it letter after letter but YOU WANT IT, it's in the meaning of your messages.
it's not a plea. don't try to turn this upside down.
also, you see arrogance where there isn't; do you picture me angry behind a keyboard furiously typing this? well it's your problem, not mine.
take the advice, take a deep breath and think what you're getting from this. there's no horse, it's all in your imagination.
you may argue... what do I have to gain from this? well, I have a point. and it's bloody right: there's people around that intentionally delay everything to make the experience the worse possible: messaging, post-match sequence, scheduling, starting and everything else down to the single move; these people are also the ones crying out loud in the forums because they've been banned/kicked from tournaments as a result of their actions. those people are what's detrimental to the game.
see the point, sir? ;)

Posted by Throweck on 2019-03-24 17:26:27

Lol, how do you know what I want? Funny stuff.

In terms of the horse I wasn’t referring to you but the argument. Get over yourself. It’s right in your opinion which isn’t shared by everyone.

We could talk like this all day, but I need to productive.

And yes it is a plea. Just because you see it differently doesn’t make you right. There is that arrogance again.

I’m happy to admit you have a point in a way. However, there are ways to put that point across and you failed at that...in my opinion, not...because I’m right and everyone should listen because I’m right, etc.

I see what you are saying but what I’m trying to get through to you is the way you approached it sucked.

If you have previous beef with Dom perhaps it’s time to let it go?

Posted by Throweck on 2019-03-24 17:31:57

I can’t be arsed with anymore long posts so I shall summarise.

If you want people to stop thinking you’re a douche, stop being a douche.

You will tell me that your point is right which somehow makes everyone wrong. I’ll try and explain. You will not see what you have written before or ignore it and the cycle continues.

I’ll go back to admin duties and you go back to trolling Dom.

Then we can all go back to our lives.

Posted by Throweck on 2019-03-24 17:45:12

Oh, last one, promise. Before you ask how I know it’s a plea...

I’ve spent a good amount of time talking to Dom over the years through tickets and games. I understand his tone when he writes. It’s definately a plea. I’ve seen Dom when he rants. This is not it.

Posted by Throweck on 2019-03-24 18:05:27

‘I have a point and it’s bloody right’

How else do I interpret that statement?

Posted by Throweck on 2019-03-24 18:05:54

Aaaaah, you deleted it!

Posted by awambawamb on 2019-03-24 18:07:13

if I'm right everyone's wrong?
whoah.

so you have the truth in your hands? the inequivocable truth? wow, talking about arrogance. as I have gone thru nothing and I have seen nothing at all in all those years, sure.

it's just like, your opinion, man. as much as mine.

Posted by awambawamb on 2019-03-24 18:08:58

yes, I've edited my comment. yes, you're typing right now.

Posted by Throweck on 2019-03-24 18:10:44

I wasn’t saying I was right. It’s how you were coming across like the above quote. Or are we just ignoring things you’ve put again?

Like I said...circles. I’m bored now.

Ah well, I wish you well mate. No hard feelings.

Posted by awambawamb on 2019-03-24 18:15:50

like you said, you talked years with Dom to say it's a plea. then how can you say it's arrogance if you never talked years to me? there's no arrogance. you misinterpreted it. and you've given a valid reason for that, since you never really talked to me beside scheduling a game.
cheers.

Posted by Dominik on 2019-03-24 19:27:21

Although not many but some of the tournament games I am paired with require* additional dialogue with the coach to finish his post match sequence, it adds nothing to a warm and friendly experience to both sides. In fact it could be seen as adding some pressure on the coach with the higher valued team or it may look like one is far too impatient.
That is the reason why I wrote this blog to remind the coaches that in case they are the higher valued team ready it within reasonable time. I fully understand if someone wants to see the pairing by the two teams where one will be the next possible opponent, then it can be communicated.

And that is why people create rules and guidelines: to make a community and communication less stressful. You will be relieved to read that in past I tried to improve my winning chances by letting my opponent ready his team first although my team was higher rated. That was at times where it was not a strict rule as who has to ready his team first.

*if the coach does not want to wait for a uncertain time in case he finishes his post match sequence just before the scheduled match starts


@awambawamb:
"I have a point. and it's bloody right: there's people around that intentionally delay everything to make the experience the worse possible: messaging, post-match sequence, scheduling, starting and everything else down to the single move"

I truly believe that not a single coach on FUMBBL intentionally tries to anger others and damage this community.