Posted by cameronhawkins on 2014-08-10 03:53:19

Tom Vasel and the folks at The Dice Tower are strongly of the opinion that Caverna is a flat-out improvement over Agricola, and I usually trust their opinions on such matters.

I've played Agricola half a dozen times, and although I respect it as a game which popularized the worker-placement genre, I found it pretty wretched. I have not played Caverna, but I'd be interested in trying. I would bet quite a sum that it is better than Agricola.

However, Lords of Waterdeep is the stand-out worker-placement game for me, right now.

Posted by Cavetroll on 2014-08-10 03:59:47

I have not played either game, but I have played Lords of Waterdeep and it is a very excellent game. There are some expansions too that will increase the number of players if you have a large group.

Posted by keggiemckill on 2014-08-10 05:16:01

I think you guys should play monopoly.

Posted by Purplegoo on 2014-08-10 10:11:56

It depends how heavy and strategic you want to go, and how much pressure you want (two of the three games mentioned have a system where you must harvest and feed, and that creates a sense of danger / pressure some like and some don't). I've played all three a number of times.

Lords of Waterdeep - Zero pressure, easy, light, short but so easy and light it essentially becomes random who wins. Little strategy.

Caverna - In the middle. Some of Agricola's pressure removed. Certainly strategic.

Agricola - Deep, heavy, creeping danger and pressure. If you want strategy and thinking, the masterpiece of the genre.

The assertion Caverna is Agricola 2.0 or the upgrade isn't right. Whilst thematically similar, they're just different games. I've played Agricola over 100 times now (app included), and it never gets old or loses novelty with the endless occupation combinations. Caverna I've played 5-6 times, and with finite buildings, I think it will end up getting old. Lords of Waterdeep has been abandoned by our group because there is too little thinking and a disconnect between playing well converting to winning. It starts off fun, but then you realise there is no depth to it whatsoever.

If you and your friends feel the same way about board games as you do Blood Bowl, Painstate, I think you should go for Caverna. I think Agricola is the better game, but you don't strike me as the type who wants a very heavy session. Caverna is that touch lighter and less pressurised. When you get the bug, then get Agricola. Only get LOW if you don't want to do any thinking in your gaming at all.

Posted by Purplegoo on 2014-08-10 10:17:37

Stone Age deserves a mention as a lighter worker placement game that retains strategy, actually. If you're new to the genre, it's a better way to go than LOW.

Posted by Overhamsteren on 2014-08-10 10:57:25

How about Tzolk'in: The Mayan Calendar?

Posted by Jeffro on 2014-08-10 13:41:52

Killer Bunnies. And you have to drink every time your bunny dies, and finish your drink when a market changes prices or closes.

Or keggie's suggestion of Monopoly, but do this:

http://www.drinkinggames.co.uk/monopoly-drinking-game.php

Posted by the_Sage on 2014-08-10 17:49:44

Caylus.

Posted by NerdBird on 2014-08-10 19:20:53

I think it really depends on the complexity you wish to introduce to your wayward friends.

Lately I have become a big fan of galxay space trucker with new people. Easy, fun and random enough to give everyone a shot at winning. You can never go wrong with Settlers or Carcassonne but for me I played them to death.

Posted by Qaz on 2014-08-10 19:52:18

Puerto rico

Posted by Wreckage on 2014-08-10 19:58:27

Read a book

Posted by cameronhawkins on 2014-08-10 20:39:55

Purplegoo, I generally respect your commentary and style on most matters, but I think you are greatly overstating your case here.

You are correct that Agricola is a game which puts pressure on the players to do certain things, but this is generally regarded as its weak-point: Not only is the feeding mechanic widely considered frustrating and disproportionately penal, but the structure of scoring (players get negative points for each area they have not developed, and diminishing returns on any area they focus in) strongly discourages players from experimenting with new strategies and seemingly demands that all players play the same way. This, to me, is a huge point against it.

I would also assert that Agricola's randomness vastly outweighs that of Lords Of Waterdeep. The improvement cards in Agricola are just a mess–– everywhere on the map in terms of power, with many that are simply unplayable and many that are cheap and powerful, and this hand of cards is the ONLY thing that drives any kind of unique choices a player will make! The most generous way to describe this would be to say that Agricola gives you a hand of cards, and then asks you to play the game to maximize the potential of that hand. But it doesn't take into account how often you will be thwarted by the fact that the opponent's hand is simply better (or worse) –– and you won't even find this out until you're an hour into the game.

Regarding Lords of Waterdeep, I totally agree that it's a lighter and faster game. But it also has direct interaction and a political element –– two things that Agricola lacks almost entirely. I also don't see how you can say that it lacks strategy –– circumstances regarding which quests to take, and reactions to the positions of your opponents change every turn, and you have to adjust your priorities constantly. I would certainly agree that the Lord cards add a bit of randomness unless you pay very close attention to your opponents, but saying that it's more random than Agricola is... quite a claim. (Also, for what it's worth, there is also an expansion available that tremendously increases the amount of strategic choices for each player.)

If you're a hard Eurogamer and dislike direct interaction, then Agricola might be the game for you. But the bottom line is that Agricola owes its popularity almost entirely to the fact that it was the first major release in the genre (much like Dominion was the first deckbuilding game). A Model-T might have been the first widely-produced automobile, but the simple fact is that design is somewhat of a science, and we now know so much more about what makes a good car. That's not to say we don't owe it a debt, but other cars have built on the premise and now run more smoothly and without so many frustrating hiccups.

Posted by Purplegoo on 2014-08-10 21:23:36

You're of course entitled to your opinions. I have to say, however, I couldn't disagree more with all of it, especially the bits presented as fact rather than opinion, which are... Not facts. LOW does pretty well on (for example) BGG, considering, and I can see why, since it's certainly not as heavy to get into than the other games mentioned so nerds that don't like Eurogames have an 'in'. I also think the theme appeals to fluffier, lighter nerds. I think it's at #30-odd currently. But Agricola is at a low at #3 having topped the pops. I believe. The criticisms you have are not... Widely held beliefs, it's a game seen as pretty much perfect. OK, so you get the odd one that doesn't like it, but you get the odd one that doesn't like free money.

Anyway, Painstate has plenty of opinions to go on. To be honest, he strikes me as the light and fluffy game type, so actually he might be best off ignoring me. But I like thinking.

Puerto Rico and Caylus are good fun on the apps too.

Shrug, enough for me. I have some Agricola turns to take...

Posted by Azure on 2014-08-10 22:42:25

Most of my boardgame playing has been with my 8, 10 and 12 year old kids. The games they enjoy:

Dungeon Lords - tons of fun with plenty of strategy involved, but everyone has fun with it.

Agricola - 2 or 3 love it, it is a really hard game to catch up if you make a mistake early, so my youngest one struggles with it.

Power Grid - a flip from Agricola since the game is biased towards whomever is in last place. It is nearly impossible to win the game early - it is close throughout.

Descent - just played this game this afternoon and they all liked it.

7 Wonders - a game I have not played, but the 3 of them all loved it when they played with extended family (I was working)

So I would recommend any of those. Have a good time.

Posted by Panda_ on 2014-08-10 22:48:14

Haven't tried Cavern. So Agricola, especially as I own it.

Posted by NerdBird on 2014-08-10 23:48:42

For younger and casual gamers I have had a lot of fun playing Flashpoint and Ticket to Ride.


One thing everyone is forgetting is...Bloodbowl is a board game! You should take that!

Posted by Ziggyny on 2014-08-11 08:47:32

Drafting the cards in Agricola really reduces a lot of the randomness and adds yet another layer of depth to the game. Especially if you remove some of the particularly overpowered cards before the draft like they do on boiteajeux.

Posted by Meltyman on 2014-08-11 09:19:21

Just to reply to people who recommends Lords of Waterderp, i was planning to buy LoW or Yedo and i went with Yedo, because it was reviewed as LoW for gamers.

I have played it for a couple of years and it still has not wore out on me or my gaming group.

Posted by Verminardo on 2014-08-11 13:45:53

I've asked my German friends who are complete and utter board game geeks and they say go with Caverna.

Posted by the_Sage on 2014-08-11 19:57:41

Oh cameronhawkins, what do YOU know about boardgames anyway?!

https://fumbbl.com/p/blog&c=cameronhawkins&id=15590