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2015-07-05 19:21:44
28 votes, rating 4
28 votes, rating 4
Just say NO!
Comments
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-07-05 19:40:31
Say "No" to what?
I say "no" when people tell me to do something I think is dumb.
I say "no" when people tell me to do something I think is dumb.
Posted by MattDakka on 2015-07-05 19:50:35
I think he's referring to the Greece splitting from the European Community.
Posted by Jeguan on 2015-07-05 19:52:59
It seems, that most of your fellow citizens say "no" today. Lets hope it is the right thing to do.
Cheers mate
Cheers mate
Posted by Jeguan on 2015-07-05 19:53:55
By the way: gg
Posted by BillBrasky on 2015-07-05 19:55:49
Doesn't Greece have like 30 people or 30 Mil, rather. And they owe like a bazillion dollars or something?
Posted by koadah on 2015-07-05 20:29:38
To piling on? To drugs? To that third bottle of whiskey? To the statuesque blonde who doesn't happen to be your wife? To more chocolate gateaux?
Posted by Jopotzuki on 2015-07-05 20:40:47
I think in general. We people need to start take more control on ourselves and have the courage to say no more often.
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-07-05 20:47:00
best of luck with that...
From here it's hard to imagine that this isn't going to to go horribly wrong but I guess with the fucked up economy I'd have done the same if i was in your shoes...
From here it's hard to imagine that this isn't going to to go horribly wrong but I guess with the fucked up economy I'd have done the same if i was in your shoes...
Posted by Cavetroll on 2015-07-05 21:20:26
No
Posted by Roland on 2015-07-05 21:27:32
No!
Posted by Winni on 2015-07-05 21:28:30
This is not good.
Posted by pythrr on 2015-07-05 22:34:29
OXI
Posted by pythrr on 2015-07-05 22:35:00
screw the germans! Greece forgave their debt, but they refuse to forgive Greece's!
Posted by Kam on 2015-07-06 00:00:52
Ελευθερία ή θάνατος
Posted by Kam on 2015-07-06 00:05:46
And yeah, pythrr is right. It's not "Greece splitting from the European Community". It's Germany. And it sucks.
Posted by Balle2000 on 2015-07-06 00:44:36
Soon the EU will show if it's a Union or just another ponzi-scheme.
Posted by Wreckage on 2015-07-06 01:55:44
I wonder if that is really the answer. Varoufakis seems to think so and he is an economist after all.
When the German government took these huge loans to help out Greece.. what are we at now? total debt is around 27000€ for every person (child, old man etc) in the republic? Merkel tried to sell the need for these additional 50 billion (it sounds much but its actually only -625€ for every German Citizen) by proclaiming that this wasn't lost but I'm pretty sure that anyone who followed the economic development projections and had at least 2 brain cells knew that there is a debt cut for Greece inevitably coming and that money inevitably was sacrifized for the well being of Greece and the Union. However that was the far future and the Christ Democrats could always blame the next government for it.
How evident this was can be pretty much seen by the value of Greek government bonds on the free market, which used to be traded in the billions pre crisis and dropped to less than 100 million post crisis, then briefly recovered before they fell into an all time low hole with the election of the new government in January.
The bond trade is making a statement that there is hardly anyone in this world who believes investing in Greece would be a good idea in spite of the EU having its back.
And this is really the long and short of it.
You have to see, in this day and age there is no such thing as a country without debts. The problem with Greece wasn't in itself that it used more money than it got but that investors got worried Greece might cut them off and demanded higher and higher payout for a loan to compensate for the potential risk of loss, to a point where it was no longer sustainable for Greece to obtain loans.
But how do countries do it when they never pay their debts back? They make new debts from somebody else to pay for their old debts and just keep on doing that forever.
Borrowed money just gets shuffeled around and everyone trusts in the system because governments always have somebody else to borrow from. In the usual case where a country maintains its own currency you know the country will rather collapse before the government is unable to pay because the central bank can always print more money if it is really necessary.
If it prints too much money, the money will just be worth less and less but the government won't default.
Within a federal system with a central government and a central court to make decisions it is usually easy to resolve these issues by pumping money into an area for certain purposes. The use of that money can then be controlled by the courts.
With the EU it's a bit more tricky because the EU member states are souvereign bodies and as such always have the last word about what is going to happen in their countries. So although the EU has a representative body and a court, both can be opposed by any member state at any given time because well... the member state is what is ulimatively in control about itself.
From an investor perspective this is what makes it kind of a risk to invest into a european member state. The path the EU has chosen to deal with the situation was to say that they are going to help all member states at any cost and at any price and that investors shouldn't worry.
Since all countries are in debt, all countries are dependent on a steady supply of investors.
Of course the problem with this strategy was that a country that doesn't get money for reasonable conditions on the private market doesn't get money because it isn't very trustworthy to begin with. You have to see Phytrr, trust in reliability of government contracts in Germany was never an issue with investors. The first debt crisis that resulted in the rise of earth biggest plague the national socialists and the averted debt crisis after WW2 were both a result of conditions of surrender. And although Germany would have certainly deserved the worst after that, with all due respect, the debts never stemmed from a poorly maintained household management.
So where am I going with this? If the EU would just hand unlimited money to member states, the objectively best thing to do from a capitalist point of view would be to start a race for the best life quality and the highest standards. In order to maintain the system, money needs to be pumped as quickly as possible on the market while government debts to central bank rise (and this is actually one of the things the central bank is doing right now, only that by the rules of the EU the ECB must loan to other banks which then in turn would have to loan to greece, which just isnt very appealing for them either.) If the ECB would loan to countries directly, there would be no incentive for them to ever reduce household spending either since their economy would be no longer dependend on the debt rates they get on the private market.
Of course then there are the Greek banks. Of course they have an interest in Greece to survive, so you can expect of course they would give loans from the Central Bank for good conditions to their government.
The problem with this approach was that the central bank of course also would make a restriction on the loaning policy for a private bank if it didn't have a minimum of liquidity as collateral. But as the greeks banks collateral lies mainly with the state, it of course became less and less appealing for private investors to invest in the banks either, which meant the currency union would proceed to cover for the greek banks aswell as for the greek state to keep it stable all the while the remaining private investors (often in Germany and France )all would pretty retreat.
So what was the goal of this? To create a steady household not so much as recreating private investor trust in the European idea on a level where greece would be loaned money on a level investors would be free of worry or fear to ever lose their investment. A debt cut can have two effects: The usual is that investor trust is recreated because the country would have less obligations. But a debt cut under threat sends exactly the opposite message: Investing isn't save! Go somewhere else!
The problem with investing in countries in difference to private companies is ultimatively tho that any sovereign entity cannot be reliably subjected to court decisions. May that be a european court or any other. It ultimateviley comes down to attitude. What attitude do you wish to show your potential investors? How do you make your country attractive for some bank, company or rich person to say: I want to invest in infrastructure in this place?
The EU is consisting of souvereign states, which makes its currency union a unique and dangerous undertaking in this world that will only have a chance to survive with a certain willingness to cooperate from all sides.
Although I am just as lost as probably everybody else to the details of the exact deals offered to Greece in the latest negotations a couple of things are more then evident:
1. The previous program has hit the greek economy hard, companies have withered all over the place and the bailout plan was a bad joke.
2. I think the former greek government negotiated well on the original bailout plan but gave in too quickly on the second package. Things showed to not work out and instead of trying a new approach the troyka just tightend the original plan. This was an absolute desaster.
As Varoufakis said, the point of negotiations from that point onward was somewhat distorted.
3. Since Greece is a rather small country it would have been possible to pump much more money into it. Fear of collapse of other nations wasn't a good reason to refrain from it.
4. Fear that Greece doesn't uphold its conditions no matter what contract given was always a serious concern. The new government and the outcome of the referendum, the unpayed rates to the WMF have all helped to set a signal in no uncertain terms on what private investors can expect in security anywhere in the near future.
conclusion:
I sincerely hope the EU will do everything to help Greece to not only survive but to become the very strong economy it needs to be to survive in a free trade union. But it would seem grotesque, not to say almost insane to me from an investor point of view if the EU would actually offer Alexis after this anything but a worse deal from anything it has offered so far. Precisely because quality of conditions tends to be related to trust in upholding them.
But maybe solidarity in other nations are not just empty words and Canada and the US will decide to also help with a couple free Billions. That would certainly fix the problem..
When the German government took these huge loans to help out Greece.. what are we at now? total debt is around 27000€ for every person (child, old man etc) in the republic? Merkel tried to sell the need for these additional 50 billion (it sounds much but its actually only -625€ for every German Citizen) by proclaiming that this wasn't lost but I'm pretty sure that anyone who followed the economic development projections and had at least 2 brain cells knew that there is a debt cut for Greece inevitably coming and that money inevitably was sacrifized for the well being of Greece and the Union. However that was the far future and the Christ Democrats could always blame the next government for it.
How evident this was can be pretty much seen by the value of Greek government bonds on the free market, which used to be traded in the billions pre crisis and dropped to less than 100 million post crisis, then briefly recovered before they fell into an all time low hole with the election of the new government in January.
The bond trade is making a statement that there is hardly anyone in this world who believes investing in Greece would be a good idea in spite of the EU having its back.
And this is really the long and short of it.
You have to see, in this day and age there is no such thing as a country without debts. The problem with Greece wasn't in itself that it used more money than it got but that investors got worried Greece might cut them off and demanded higher and higher payout for a loan to compensate for the potential risk of loss, to a point where it was no longer sustainable for Greece to obtain loans.
But how do countries do it when they never pay their debts back? They make new debts from somebody else to pay for their old debts and just keep on doing that forever.
Borrowed money just gets shuffeled around and everyone trusts in the system because governments always have somebody else to borrow from. In the usual case where a country maintains its own currency you know the country will rather collapse before the government is unable to pay because the central bank can always print more money if it is really necessary.
If it prints too much money, the money will just be worth less and less but the government won't default.
Within a federal system with a central government and a central court to make decisions it is usually easy to resolve these issues by pumping money into an area for certain purposes. The use of that money can then be controlled by the courts.
With the EU it's a bit more tricky because the EU member states are souvereign bodies and as such always have the last word about what is going to happen in their countries. So although the EU has a representative body and a court, both can be opposed by any member state at any given time because well... the member state is what is ulimatively in control about itself.
From an investor perspective this is what makes it kind of a risk to invest into a european member state. The path the EU has chosen to deal with the situation was to say that they are going to help all member states at any cost and at any price and that investors shouldn't worry.
Since all countries are in debt, all countries are dependent on a steady supply of investors.
Of course the problem with this strategy was that a country that doesn't get money for reasonable conditions on the private market doesn't get money because it isn't very trustworthy to begin with. You have to see Phytrr, trust in reliability of government contracts in Germany was never an issue with investors. The first debt crisis that resulted in the rise of earth biggest plague the national socialists and the averted debt crisis after WW2 were both a result of conditions of surrender. And although Germany would have certainly deserved the worst after that, with all due respect, the debts never stemmed from a poorly maintained household management.
So where am I going with this? If the EU would just hand unlimited money to member states, the objectively best thing to do from a capitalist point of view would be to start a race for the best life quality and the highest standards. In order to maintain the system, money needs to be pumped as quickly as possible on the market while government debts to central bank rise (and this is actually one of the things the central bank is doing right now, only that by the rules of the EU the ECB must loan to other banks which then in turn would have to loan to greece, which just isnt very appealing for them either.) If the ECB would loan to countries directly, there would be no incentive for them to ever reduce household spending either since their economy would be no longer dependend on the debt rates they get on the private market.
Of course then there are the Greek banks. Of course they have an interest in Greece to survive, so you can expect of course they would give loans from the Central Bank for good conditions to their government.
The problem with this approach was that the central bank of course also would make a restriction on the loaning policy for a private bank if it didn't have a minimum of liquidity as collateral. But as the greeks banks collateral lies mainly with the state, it of course became less and less appealing for private investors to invest in the banks either, which meant the currency union would proceed to cover for the greek banks aswell as for the greek state to keep it stable all the while the remaining private investors (often in Germany and France )all would pretty retreat.
So what was the goal of this? To create a steady household not so much as recreating private investor trust in the European idea on a level where greece would be loaned money on a level investors would be free of worry or fear to ever lose their investment. A debt cut can have two effects: The usual is that investor trust is recreated because the country would have less obligations. But a debt cut under threat sends exactly the opposite message: Investing isn't save! Go somewhere else!
The problem with investing in countries in difference to private companies is ultimatively tho that any sovereign entity cannot be reliably subjected to court decisions. May that be a european court or any other. It ultimateviley comes down to attitude. What attitude do you wish to show your potential investors? How do you make your country attractive for some bank, company or rich person to say: I want to invest in infrastructure in this place?
The EU is consisting of souvereign states, which makes its currency union a unique and dangerous undertaking in this world that will only have a chance to survive with a certain willingness to cooperate from all sides.
Although I am just as lost as probably everybody else to the details of the exact deals offered to Greece in the latest negotations a couple of things are more then evident:
1. The previous program has hit the greek economy hard, companies have withered all over the place and the bailout plan was a bad joke.
2. I think the former greek government negotiated well on the original bailout plan but gave in too quickly on the second package. Things showed to not work out and instead of trying a new approach the troyka just tightend the original plan. This was an absolute desaster.
As Varoufakis said, the point of negotiations from that point onward was somewhat distorted.
3. Since Greece is a rather small country it would have been possible to pump much more money into it. Fear of collapse of other nations wasn't a good reason to refrain from it.
4. Fear that Greece doesn't uphold its conditions no matter what contract given was always a serious concern. The new government and the outcome of the referendum, the unpayed rates to the WMF have all helped to set a signal in no uncertain terms on what private investors can expect in security anywhere in the near future.
conclusion:
I sincerely hope the EU will do everything to help Greece to not only survive but to become the very strong economy it needs to be to survive in a free trade union. But it would seem grotesque, not to say almost insane to me from an investor point of view if the EU would actually offer Alexis after this anything but a worse deal from anything it has offered so far. Precisely because quality of conditions tends to be related to trust in upholding them.
But maybe solidarity in other nations are not just empty words and Canada and the US will decide to also help with a couple free Billions. That would certainly fix the problem..
Posted by pythrr on 2015-07-06 02:10:51
why on earth would Canada and USA help? This is a euro-problem. you guys sort it out. we have enough debt of our own over here.
Posted by Balle2000 on 2015-07-06 02:20:37
It's interesting how this blog rating mirrors the Greek referendum.
Posted by albinv on 2015-07-06 03:39:34
"However that was the far future and the Christ Democrats could always blame the next government for it."
Mahaha. I love this joke. Well placed here. A good running joke will be maintained...^^
Mahaha. I love this joke. Well placed here. A good running joke will be maintained...^^
Posted by Badoek on 2015-07-06 08:44:47
Wreckage dude, WAY too long. But well said (except for the last part, but I think/hope you were joking).
I don't think saying No was such a good idea. Greece should have gotten their stuff together years ago but right now their only chance is working with the EU. My bet is today will see a yes after all, especially with Varoufakis gone now. Although I do wonder if the EU will make a similar sacrifice...
I don't think saying No was such a good idea. Greece should have gotten their stuff together years ago but right now their only chance is working with the EU. My bet is today will see a yes after all, especially with Varoufakis gone now. Although I do wonder if the EU will make a similar sacrifice...
Posted by Macabeo on 2015-07-06 10:59:19
OXI
Posted by PaddyMick on 2015-07-06 14:01:27
Wreckage for President of Europe!
Posted by Balle2000 on 2015-07-06 16:50:48
Here's an article on the why of Greece's financial pickle: http://www.globalresearch.ca/greece-the-one-biggest-lie-you-are-being-told-by-the-media
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2015-07-06 16:51:21
No
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2015-07-06 16:55:37
Oh, politics... I feel like I was tricked :(