37 coaches online • Server time: 13:48
* * * Did you know? The best blocker is Taku the Second with 551 casualties.
Recent Forum Topics  Draft League Expansi... | 90+ Custom Rosters! | NBFL Season 32: The ... |
2011-04-14 14:48:31
43 votes, rating 4.8
43 votes, rating 4.8
Match Etiquette
Played a match the other day where my opponent literally became irate at the sight of me stalling in a game. He had the all too observant point that we weren't playing in a tournament so stalling had no place. So he decided to take 4 min turns until the end of the half where for three minutes and 40 seconds he did nothing at all. I openly admit that stalling isn't sexy or the most entertaining thing in the world but it is a very valid tactic to win games, and I play to win always.
I expect people to stall, foul, dodge, throw hail mary passes, etc... against me to win. I understand that and enjoy the competitive nature of what can be found here on FUMBBL.
What I don't understand is what is accomplished by wasting both your and my time? You could be playing another match considering stalled turns are usually quite fast, or heck you could be making money playing online poker or spending time with family, do people really not value their time or even have an understanding of opportunity cost?
I expect people to stall, foul, dodge, throw hail mary passes, etc... against me to win. I understand that and enjoy the competitive nature of what can be found here on FUMBBL.
What I don't understand is what is accomplished by wasting both your and my time? You could be playing another match considering stalled turns are usually quite fast, or heck you could be making money playing online poker or spending time with family, do people really not value their time or even have an understanding of opportunity cost?
Comments
Posted by Ehlers on 2011-04-14 14:50:27
Go to the admin channel on IRC and get an admin to spec your game. So that the admin can take action against him.
Posted by Gromrilram on 2011-04-14 14:53:48
simple way to deal with that problem:
point out to him that in the fumbbl site rules is written:
"Intentionally delaying the game by for example not ending your turn or by waiting for extended periods of time before moving is not allowed."
if my opponent kept doing so id get in contact with an admin.
usually coaches with that approach are new to fumbbl however, so trying to explain to him is probably better way than pissing him off... but after all: all matches in ranked and blackbox are considered competetive, so he doesnt really have a point.
a smart coach once said "show me a coach who stalls and ill show you a coach who messed up on defense."
point out to him that in the fumbbl site rules is written:
"Intentionally delaying the game by for example not ending your turn or by waiting for extended periods of time before moving is not allowed."
if my opponent kept doing so id get in contact with an admin.
usually coaches with that approach are new to fumbbl however, so trying to explain to him is probably better way than pissing him off... but after all: all matches in ranked and blackbox are considered competetive, so he doesnt really have a point.
a smart coach once said "show me a coach who stalls and ill show you a coach who messed up on defense."
Posted by icesmooth on 2011-04-14 14:56:31
Grom,
Love that quote
A truly great summation
Love that quote
A truly great summation
Posted by maysrill on 2011-04-14 14:59:50
Yup, your opponent was a tool. That stuff just needs to be reported, or they'll keep doing it to others.
Personally, stalling is my favorite thing when I'm getting crushed. I'd rather my opponent stall out the 2-0 or 2-1 win than make me set up 3-4 guys when that's all I have left.
Plus, it gets the game over with faster, so you can both get another one.
Personally, stalling is my favorite thing when I'm getting crushed. I'd rather my opponent stall out the 2-0 or 2-1 win than make me set up 3-4 guys when that's all I have left.
Plus, it gets the game over with faster, so you can both get another one.
Posted by Garion on 2011-04-14 15:12:09
you should have reported him to the admin while he was taking his 4 minutes turns.
Stalling is possibly the most important part of the game.
Wow havent seen this issue crop up for a long time.
Stalling is possibly the most important part of the game.
Wow havent seen this issue crop up for a long time.
Posted by f_alk on 2011-04-14 15:47:14
Apart from the (site rules) situation (where the site does not follow the CRP as closely as possible), think of it this way:
You both have different opinions on what is "enjoyable". He pointed out he was not finding the game enjoyable the way you played it, but you didn't change anything. He decided to explain to you in detail what unenjoyable can also mean.
Bloodbowl is a game of two human players. Don't belittle your opponent by ignoring his opinion on what is enjoyable - some will reply to such a behaviour with the best solution game theory can offer (and surprisingly one of the most successful evolutionary- biological and even social strategies) "Eye for an Eye".
You both have different opinions on what is "enjoyable". He pointed out he was not finding the game enjoyable the way you played it, but you didn't change anything. He decided to explain to you in detail what unenjoyable can also mean.
Bloodbowl is a game of two human players. Don't belittle your opponent by ignoring his opinion on what is enjoyable - some will reply to such a behaviour with the best solution game theory can offer (and surprisingly one of the most successful evolutionary- biological and even social strategies) "Eye for an Eye".
Posted by gjopie on 2011-04-14 15:52:16
f_alk: If I don't find the other coach killing my team enjoyably, can I justifiably delay the game to teach him a lesson?
No, I'd be acting like a child. The truth is, he was acting within the rules of the game. In my opinion, I should learn to live with it or stop playing Bloodbowl.
No, I'd be acting like a child. The truth is, he was acting within the rules of the game. In my opinion, I should learn to live with it or stop playing Bloodbowl.
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2011-04-14 15:53:05
The correct answer to this problem is: LOL
Posted by maysrill on 2011-04-14 17:30:45
f_alk: I don't find natural one-turners enjoyable. You keep using yours and I can't stop it. STOP IT! Oh you won't? I'm going to use a non-stop string of profanity, racial and ethnic slurs, and ad hominem attacks directed at you and your upbringing.
How is this different? The guy picked an arbitrary part of the game to take offense to. He came up with a childish, rule-violating way to try to ruin his opponent's enjoyment of the game.
How is this different? The guy picked an arbitrary part of the game to take offense to. He came up with a childish, rule-violating way to try to ruin his opponent's enjoyment of the game.
Posted by Cavetroll on 2011-04-14 17:33:46
Lots of things about Bloodbowl can be unenjoyable (i.e. bad dice, getting killed, being fouled every turn, etc.) but those are all in the rules. Icesmooth is not belittling his opponent by performing an action that is allowed both within the CRP ruleset and the FUMBBL ruleset, even if his opponent expressed his displeasure at aforementioned tactic/activity. Violating the site rules is not a valid response to any of those tactics, no matter how annoyed one might be in the middle of the game.
The correct answer to stalling is: Give em da boot!
The correct answer to stalling is: Give em da boot!
Posted by DukeTyrion on 2011-04-14 17:48:57
I stalled in a match on Cyanide and my opponent said he 'hoped all my family died of cancer' before disconnecting, in the hope that I wouldn't get awarded the win.
At least here we have an awesome set of admins and some structured rules, to deal with these idiots who throw their toys out of their prams.
At least here we have an awesome set of admins and some structured rules, to deal with these idiots who throw their toys out of their prams.
Posted by Synn on 2011-04-14 18:23:32
Grom: My quote was phrased better ;)
__Synn
__Synn
Posted by Wreckage on 2011-04-14 18:26:09
I'd gladly take any swearing on me if that would get me a natural OT scorer...
Posted by Jeffro on 2011-04-14 19:12:44
Your opponent was obviously upset because you were beating him. I would wager that if you would've scored and made him line up less than a full squad (not saying that was the case here, but say it was...) he would likely have thrown a hissy fit over NOT stalling.
Unfortunate that you ran across him at one of his ugly moments... we all have our ugly moments, though. That his actions were against site policy - totally: report it and don't feel guilty in the least.
Unfortunate that you ran across him at one of his ugly moments... we all have our ugly moments, though. That his actions were against site policy - totally: report it and don't feel guilty in the least.
Posted by PigStar-69 on 2011-04-14 20:26:11
bollocks
Posted by f_alk on 2011-04-14 20:26:16
I find whining about whining a bit two-faced and wanted to point out that.
What icesmooth didn't seem to get is that he was the first to "waste" his opponents time, and then he complains that the other one starts wasting his time as well. He implies his opponent wasn't playing poker in the meantime or whatever - but has no proof of it. He even claims that the "taking time" was a "decision" by the other player, but has no proof of it. Maybe he had to look after his kid or cat or whatever: a fluke coincidence, yet icesmooth claims it was planned.
It is always important for each and every player to remember that you have another human being sitting on the other side of the computer. You both have no higher right in determining what is "fun" than the other, and obviously it will differ.
What icesmooth didn't seem to get is that he was the first to "waste" his opponents time, and then he complains that the other one starts wasting his time as well. He implies his opponent wasn't playing poker in the meantime or whatever - but has no proof of it. He even claims that the "taking time" was a "decision" by the other player, but has no proof of it. Maybe he had to look after his kid or cat or whatever: a fluke coincidence, yet icesmooth claims it was planned.
It is always important for each and every player to remember that you have another human being sitting on the other side of the computer. You both have no higher right in determining what is "fun" than the other, and obviously it will differ.
Posted by Cavetroll on 2011-04-14 21:39:58
f_alk, you just don't get it, man. you just don't get it.
Posted by Gromrilram on 2011-04-14 21:52:59
i know synn, but i dont want to get banned for offensive language AGAIN
Posted by RandomOracle on 2011-04-14 22:41:22
f_alk is showing that no matter how stupidly someone is behaving, there's another one ready to defend them.
Posted by Tymless on 2011-04-14 23:56:22
f_alk,
how was he wasting his opponents time by stalling. Unless he was waiting 4 minutes before ending his turn I bet his turns where much much faster then his sore loser of an opponent. As you point out fun is relative to whos having it. But the main point here is simple. One person played their turn by the rules and the other person may or may not have done the same. So who has the right to complain here either way. Stalling is part of this game, in the same sense that td's, blocking and one-turning is. No one should complain about a game mechanic or maybe its not the game that is the problem..
how was he wasting his opponents time by stalling. Unless he was waiting 4 minutes before ending his turn I bet his turns where much much faster then his sore loser of an opponent. As you point out fun is relative to whos having it. But the main point here is simple. One person played their turn by the rules and the other person may or may not have done the same. So who has the right to complain here either way. Stalling is part of this game, in the same sense that td's, blocking and one-turning is. No one should complain about a game mechanic or maybe its not the game that is the problem..
Posted by DonTomaso on 2011-04-14 23:58:20
I agree with f_alk. There COULD be another reason.
I've met opponents who think the two first minutes of every turn. Even before raising a player up. That should be borderline illegal then?
I've met opponents who think the two first minutes of every turn. Even before raising a player up. That should be borderline illegal then?
Posted by pythrr on 2011-04-15 02:34:01
falk, bollocks.
stalling is legal.
intentionally delaying the game is not. it is against site rules, and the OP should have asked an admin to come and watch.
stalling is legal.
intentionally delaying the game is not. it is against site rules, and the OP should have asked an admin to come and watch.
Posted by MonkeyMan576 on 2011-04-15 06:07:34
Expecting opponents not to stall is like expecting your opponent not to run the ball 100% of the time in an NFL game when you are up 10 points with 5 minutes to go, or expecting your opponent not to foul you in an NBA game when you are ahead. It's part of the game and a perfectly legimate strategy. If you can't stop a staller than you have no reason to whine. Usually when my opponent stalls I try to foul as much as possible or try to break his cages.
Posted by f_alk on 2011-04-15 11:24:31
Can anyone present me any proof that the slow play was indeed intentional?
Innocent until *proven* guilty!
If you called me a (insulting phrase) in the evening, and next day you find that someone scratched a key along your car in the night ... then that's proof enough for you that it was me?
Icesmooth complains about a behaviour that is CRP-legal, but not site-legal, and by general consensus frowned upon.
Many here jump on the bandwagon (because they agree that the behaviour is to be condemned) ... but they don't care that all they have is the testimony of the accuser, which of course is so heavily biased that it is worthless.
Innocent until *proven* guilty!
If you called me a (insulting phrase) in the evening, and next day you find that someone scratched a key along your car in the night ... then that's proof enough for you that it was me?
Icesmooth complains about a behaviour that is CRP-legal, but not site-legal, and by general consensus frowned upon.
Many here jump on the bandwagon (because they agree that the behaviour is to be condemned) ... but they don't care that all they have is the testimony of the accuser, which of course is so heavily biased that it is worthless.
Posted by f_alk on 2011-04-15 11:27:48
@Tymless: he was wasting time, because playing a game you don't enjoy is a waste of time. You could spend that unenjoyful time much better - exactly with those things that icesmooth somehow miraculously *knows* that his opponent didn't do them.
@pythrr: I never said it stalling was not legal. And you yourself put the important word in there: *intentionally* delaying the game ... but how do you know it was intentionally? Just because the opponent says so?
@pythrr: I never said it stalling was not legal. And you yourself put the important word in there: *intentionally* delaying the game ... but how do you know it was intentionally? Just because the opponent says so?
Posted by SillySod on 2011-04-15 11:43:47
f_alk:
I think its fair for us to assume that the blogger is telling the truth. Certainly when people are handing out the advice - go to an admin - they shouldnt be trying to second guess what might really be going on. If facts are being misrepresented then the admin would give them a ding on the ear and explain why the behaviour is legal.
I think its fair for us to assume that the blogger is telling the truth. Certainly when people are handing out the advice - go to an admin - they shouldnt be trying to second guess what might really be going on. If facts are being misrepresented then the admin would give them a ding on the ear and explain why the behaviour is legal.
Posted by f_alk on 2011-04-15 14:28:53
How I hate it when Silly Sod is right :)....
I was getting a bit sidetracked from my original wishful thinking: If you complain about someone, maybe you are part of the reason for his behavior that you complain about. Then, before calling the "police", you could try to figure out a solution with the other person directly. And complaining about complaining is ... well ... not very convincing at least to me.
I hope I could get my point across.
I was getting a bit sidetracked from my original wishful thinking: If you complain about someone, maybe you are part of the reason for his behavior that you complain about. Then, before calling the "police", you could try to figure out a solution with the other person directly. And complaining about complaining is ... well ... not very convincing at least to me.
I hope I could get my point across.
Posted by SillySod on 2011-04-15 15:11:03
I can see where you're coming from but I dont think that "stalling" is a legitimate complaint. Stalling is a fairly crucial part of in-game tactics. I guess its such a fundamental part of competitive bloodbowl that, once you've agreed to play a game of competitive bloodbowl, is an unjustified thing to feel sore about.
You might have more of a point if the blogger was using debateable "fringe" tactics like heavy fouling or being abusive in chat. In such a case time wasting would still be wrong, but it would be more reasonable to suggest that it had actively been incited.
You might have more of a point if the blogger was using debateable "fringe" tactics like heavy fouling or being abusive in chat. In such a case time wasting would still be wrong, but it would be more reasonable to suggest that it had actively been incited.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-04-15 18:09:26
falk
"cesmooth complains about a behaviour that is CRP-legal, but not site-legal"
Site-legal is the ONLY consideration here.
You wish for CRP-legal means nothing except for in your mind.
"cesmooth complains about a behaviour that is CRP-legal, but not site-legal"
Site-legal is the ONLY consideration here.
You wish for CRP-legal means nothing except for in your mind.
Posted by Tymless on 2011-04-15 19:23:57
well, he could have just conceded if it was so little fun for him. I also never said if anyone was right about wasting time one way or another.
Posted by f_alk on 2011-04-15 20:03:37
@ Tymless: oh, he could not have conceded there is a whole section in the site rules about concessoins, and the forum and blog entries by the admin staff were extremely strict on what is "valid" ... there even real life issues did not allow you to concede (the match must then be interrupted and counts as disconnected).
@pythhr: I assume you haven't read my first entry where I mentioned that here site-legal conctradicts the site's strive after full CRP-compliance and no house rules. This is a house rule... yet still people claim that we shouldn't use house rules. So, I guess you have misinterpreted me here because that connection wasn't clear from the later post only.
@pythhr: I assume you haven't read my first entry where I mentioned that here site-legal conctradicts the site's strive after full CRP-compliance and no house rules. This is a house rule... yet still people claim that we shouldn't use house rules. So, I guess you have misinterpreted me here because that connection wasn't clear from the later post only.
Posted by pythrr on 2011-04-16 18:41:00
falk, it may be a house rule, but it is currently a SITE rule, to which we ALL voluntarily agree when we join the site
what is your issue, since your agreed to the rule?
what is your issue, since your agreed to the rule?
Posted by f_alk on 2011-04-17 04:17:51
I think that no one can adamatanly defend the "no-house-rule" esp. for the box with the argument of "FUMBBL tries to be as close to the CRP as possible, so no house rules", while accepting house rules in other areas.
Posted by DonTomaso on 2011-07-08 18:10:11
But you sure as hell don't understand the social side of it all... Voted 1 for silly!