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2011-11-08 09:40:10
rating 4.6
31 coaches online • Server time: 07:26
* * * Did you know? The oldest player is debog with 649 games played.
Recent Forum Topics  Elf Draft Coach | [L] OBBA Smack Talk ... | Cindy fumbling after... |
2013-07-25 10:31:30
28 votes, rating 5.3
28 votes, rating 5.3
Congratulating and norms
This is a rather lengthy response to FatEddie's blog on (not) saying gratz after a TD. Please only rate if you actually bothered to read it. =P
tl;dr:
Vacuous statements are norms. Not issuing them is a violation of the norm, marking you as a rogue or an outsider. Therefore issuing the statements is not actually vacuous.
wall of text:
The argument was roughly that
You should say gratz when someone scores a TD
v.s.
Saying all that stuff is meaningless, so you shouldn't.
As a psychologist (well, a cognitive neuroscientist working in psychology) I suppose I do have some insight into this process.
Norms are sometimes/usually separate from actual communication. Saying GL & HF, gz, gg, etc. is not communicating about fun, about luck, about the touchdown or about the game. What you are really saying is
'I see you. I am one of us, like you. We have some form of social contract'.
This means the content of your words is vastly different from the content of your message, but that does not diminish the content of your message.
(I usually do deviate from this norm slightly myself, by saying 'hi. have fun!' This is because A: it's more important that we have fun, and B: Wishing for the opponent to be lucky seems hypocritical. Ideally we have a game where we're equally lucky and I manage to just squeeze out a win by a very small difference in skill/insight. I'm pretty sure this deviation is small enough to still conform to the norm.)
So while following these norms seems like a vacuous form of politeness, you are in a social environment where the presence of these statements is the norm. Humans are pack apes with a LOT of attention to group cohesion and an innate distaste for rogues and outsiders. Intentionally or not, the impoliteness of the absence of the norm statements become a communicative act in and of itself. It marks you as either a rogue who violates the norms we both (should) share, or as an outsider who does not share our norms at all.
To make a comparison with real life: when someone asks me 'How are you?' I tend to tell them something along the lines of 'Pretty good. I just resubmitted my modeling paper and the kids play really nicely together'. I'll then ask how the other person is doing, if I want to know; or not if I don't, or if I don't have time for a lengthy answer (or if I simply forget). This way of communicating is not uncommon among Dutch people, though to be fair a 'fine, and you?' or such is still more common (and will usually prompt a 'yeah, fine too' response). Simply asking the question is an invitation to tell, and it initiates information exchange. If I'm NOT fine, I tend to tell this as well, if I feel like it.
However, whenever Americans say 'howareya' I tend to actually parse this as three words, and answer it as if it were the same question described above. My answer then usually turns into a mumble halfway, as I catch myself and realize it was just one word, and it didn't end in a question mark. You can usually clearly tell that the other person is surprised/annoyed that the answer wasn't 'heyhowareya'. If I do manage to catch myself in time to simply answer 'heyowareya', that (which is technically a question) is never actually answered, simply because it is not. (it's kind of like answering 'ca va?' with 'ca va', though my knowledge of French language and culture isn't sufficient to assess any subtleties there.
The point is that breaking the norm, even a seemingly vacuous noncommunicative one, is in itself a disruptive communicative act, that jolts people out of their patterns of expectancy (for better or worse).
That doesn't mean you shouldn't choose to deviate from the norm per se. However, if you choose to do so, you should be aware what you are doing: of the effect it has on the other person and the interaction you have with them. If you do so, you choose to mark yourself as a rogue/outsider. As a result, most people will treat you less politely, more aggressively, less altruistic, less trusting, etc. etc.
In an online game such behavior is neither logical or optimal, but given our evolutionary background and our emotional makeup, it is perfectly understandable.
*edit: on luck
since it was a wall of text already anyway, I add this here rather than as a new blog, or a reply.
I think luck makes blood bowl interesting, because it means you need to deal with probabilities with variable variabilities. This is very complex, but in an intuitive way, which is a lot of fun for me.
However, I think the best games are the ones where making the right decision within that complex space (ie coaching skill) makes the difference. I enjoy games less where the coach who played worse wins because of luck (regardless of whether it's me or the opponent): i.e. I enjoy games that are decided by a turn 0 Blitz!, turn 1 score, and a turn 1 Blitz! and a turn 2 score a lot less, even when they're my blitzes.
A recent example of a great game from competitive play:
I played in a 3-game tabletop tourney (Amersfoort Amok:
[url=http://member.thenaf.net/index.php?module=NAF&type=tournamentinfo&uid=17382&id=1847)
In the first game, my rats managed a wizard steal against chaos dwarves. Rather than score on turn 5(6?), I decided to stall for one a turn. My blodge gutter could sit 1 square from the endzone with the ball, and the opponent hobo could only get a TZ on him with 2 GFIs. What I missed was that he could make a dodge somewhere, set up a double chainpush, so that hobo could get a 2die instead of just marking my gutter. He pow'ed, managed a turn 8 score, and second half didn't see any TDs. As such, that one decision made the difference between a 1-0 win and a 1-0 loss. Not only that, but over the whole day I played 2/0/1, while the CD coach WON the tournament with a 2/1/0 record. Ignoring the swiss pairing for a moment (which is fair enough since he got to play against halflings for his last game), the entire tournament was decided by me missing that a double chainpush was possible, and him seeing it.
THAT is the best possible way for to win and the best way to lose imo, not the luck stuff (though it can be fun in a random kind of way too sometimes, but preferably not when it matters).
tl;dr:
Vacuous statements are norms. Not issuing them is a violation of the norm, marking you as a rogue or an outsider. Therefore issuing the statements is not actually vacuous.
wall of text:
The argument was roughly that
You should say gratz when someone scores a TD
v.s.
Saying all that stuff is meaningless, so you shouldn't.
As a psychologist (well, a cognitive neuroscientist working in psychology) I suppose I do have some insight into this process.
Norms are sometimes/usually separate from actual communication. Saying GL & HF, gz, gg, etc. is not communicating about fun, about luck, about the touchdown or about the game. What you are really saying is
'I see you. I am one of us, like you. We have some form of social contract'.
This means the content of your words is vastly different from the content of your message, but that does not diminish the content of your message.
(I usually do deviate from this norm slightly myself, by saying 'hi. have fun!' This is because A: it's more important that we have fun, and B: Wishing for the opponent to be lucky seems hypocritical. Ideally we have a game where we're equally lucky and I manage to just squeeze out a win by a very small difference in skill/insight. I'm pretty sure this deviation is small enough to still conform to the norm.)
So while following these norms seems like a vacuous form of politeness, you are in a social environment where the presence of these statements is the norm. Humans are pack apes with a LOT of attention to group cohesion and an innate distaste for rogues and outsiders. Intentionally or not, the impoliteness of the absence of the norm statements become a communicative act in and of itself. It marks you as either a rogue who violates the norms we both (should) share, or as an outsider who does not share our norms at all.
To make a comparison with real life: when someone asks me 'How are you?' I tend to tell them something along the lines of 'Pretty good. I just resubmitted my modeling paper and the kids play really nicely together'. I'll then ask how the other person is doing, if I want to know; or not if I don't, or if I don't have time for a lengthy answer (or if I simply forget). This way of communicating is not uncommon among Dutch people, though to be fair a 'fine, and you?' or such is still more common (and will usually prompt a 'yeah, fine too' response). Simply asking the question is an invitation to tell, and it initiates information exchange. If I'm NOT fine, I tend to tell this as well, if I feel like it.
However, whenever Americans say 'howareya' I tend to actually parse this as three words, and answer it as if it were the same question described above. My answer then usually turns into a mumble halfway, as I catch myself and realize it was just one word, and it didn't end in a question mark. You can usually clearly tell that the other person is surprised/annoyed that the answer wasn't 'heyhowareya'. If I do manage to catch myself in time to simply answer 'heyowareya', that (which is technically a question) is never actually answered, simply because it is not. (it's kind of like answering 'ca va?' with 'ca va', though my knowledge of French language and culture isn't sufficient to assess any subtleties there.
The point is that breaking the norm, even a seemingly vacuous noncommunicative one, is in itself a disruptive communicative act, that jolts people out of their patterns of expectancy (for better or worse).
That doesn't mean you shouldn't choose to deviate from the norm per se. However, if you choose to do so, you should be aware what you are doing: of the effect it has on the other person and the interaction you have with them. If you do so, you choose to mark yourself as a rogue/outsider. As a result, most people will treat you less politely, more aggressively, less altruistic, less trusting, etc. etc.
In an online game such behavior is neither logical or optimal, but given our evolutionary background and our emotional makeup, it is perfectly understandable.
*edit: on luck
since it was a wall of text already anyway, I add this here rather than as a new blog, or a reply.
I think luck makes blood bowl interesting, because it means you need to deal with probabilities with variable variabilities. This is very complex, but in an intuitive way, which is a lot of fun for me.
However, I think the best games are the ones where making the right decision within that complex space (ie coaching skill) makes the difference. I enjoy games less where the coach who played worse wins because of luck (regardless of whether it's me or the opponent): i.e. I enjoy games that are decided by a turn 0 Blitz!, turn 1 score, and a turn 1 Blitz! and a turn 2 score a lot less, even when they're my blitzes.
A recent example of a great game from competitive play:
I played in a 3-game tabletop tourney (Amersfoort Amok:
[url=http://member.thenaf.net/index.php?module=NAF&type=tournamentinfo&uid=17382&id=1847)
In the first game, my rats managed a wizard steal against chaos dwarves. Rather than score on turn 5(6?), I decided to stall for one a turn. My blodge gutter could sit 1 square from the endzone with the ball, and the opponent hobo could only get a TZ on him with 2 GFIs. What I missed was that he could make a dodge somewhere, set up a double chainpush, so that hobo could get a 2die instead of just marking my gutter. He pow'ed, managed a turn 8 score, and second half didn't see any TDs. As such, that one decision made the difference between a 1-0 win and a 1-0 loss. Not only that, but over the whole day I played 2/0/1, while the CD coach WON the tournament with a 2/1/0 record. Ignoring the swiss pairing for a moment (which is fair enough since he got to play against halflings for his last game), the entire tournament was decided by me missing that a double chainpush was possible, and him seeing it.
THAT is the best possible way for to win and the best way to lose imo, not the luck stuff (though it can be fun in a random kind of way too sometimes, but preferably not when it matters).
Comments
Posted by luckyjim12 on 2013-07-25 10:37:07
Great blog. I even understood most of it. The example I'm using to make it make sense is that there's a guy in our team who's new who doesn't say "thanks" for a drink. You may think "thanks" is not important to say like "grats" but it really is - as the Sage says the rest of us have noticed and mention it when he's not there in a sort of low level conspiracy.
I start a game with hi, have fun. If i'm feeling chipper i'll occasionally ask nuffle to shower the opponent with 1s. Never "good luck" - why would I wish that?
I start a game with hi, have fun. If i'm feeling chipper i'll occasionally ask nuffle to shower the opponent with 1s. Never "good luck" - why would I wish that?
Posted by Mr_Foulscumm on 2013-07-25 10:47:57
Thanks for putting the tl;dr at the beginning. :D
Posted by the_Sage on 2013-07-25 10:52:23
Well, tl;dr at the end doesn't exactly work, does it? =P
Posted by mister__joshua on 2013-07-25 10:58:19
"(I usually do deviate from this slightly by saying 'hi. have fun!' because A: it's more important that we have fun, and B: Wishing for the opponent to be lucky seems hypocritical. Ideally we have a game where we're equally lucky and I manage to just squeeze out a win by a very small difference in skill/insight. I suspect this deviation is small enough to conform to the norm)"
Tha's exactly what I do, and for that reason too. I always thought it was hypocritical to wish luck to an opponent that really you don't want to be lucky at all.
For a while I started saying "Have fun and no luck" or "Have fun and bac luck". I still will if my opponent seems particularly chatty :)
Tha's exactly what I do, and for that reason too. I always thought it was hypocritical to wish luck to an opponent that really you don't want to be lucky at all.
For a while I started saying "Have fun and no luck" or "Have fun and bac luck". I still will if my opponent seems particularly chatty :)
Posted by Verminardo on 2013-07-25 11:14:24
I've settled for "Enjoy the match :)"
Posted by Shraaaag on 2013-07-25 11:24:53
I'm a fan of: "You take the fun, I'll take the luck"
But it's more of a 'break-the-ice' than actually not wishing fun for myself or luck for my opponent.
I usually add things like:
'Nice catch/kick' (an accurately placed kick, or a difficult catch
'First Blood!' (the first cas of the game)
'Grats' (after TD)
'ouch' (when either mine or my opponent players get injured when least needed)
'd'oh' (when I do something obviously stupid, like misclicking)
'lol' when I end my turn by failing the first thing I do)
'Thanks for the game, and good luck with your team' (at the end of the match).
... and so on ...
I hate it when my opponents are silent, so I try not to be silent myself (even if what I say is meaningless)
But it's more of a 'break-the-ice' than actually not wishing fun for myself or luck for my opponent.
I usually add things like:
'Nice catch/kick' (an accurately placed kick, or a difficult catch
'First Blood!' (the first cas of the game)
'Grats' (after TD)
'ouch' (when either mine or my opponent players get injured when least needed)
'd'oh' (when I do something obviously stupid, like misclicking)
'lol' when I end my turn by failing the first thing I do)
'Thanks for the game, and good luck with your team' (at the end of the match).
... and so on ...
I hate it when my opponents are silent, so I try not to be silent myself (even if what I say is meaningless)
Posted by the_Sage on 2013-07-25 11:46:12
that sounds roughly what I do, Shraaaaaaaaaag.
I do so regardless of whether the opponent is very chatty, completely silent, or anywhere in between.
I do sometimes begin to feel a little embarassed when the opponent's last chat line disappears by scrolling over the top of the chat window, and I realize I've been talking to myself for a while now. =D
I do so regardless of whether the opponent is very chatty, completely silent, or anywhere in between.
I do sometimes begin to feel a little embarassed when the opponent's last chat line disappears by scrolling over the top of the chat window, and I realize I've been talking to myself for a while now. =D
Posted by luckyjim12 on 2013-07-25 11:56:43
"I do sometimes begin to feel a little embarassed when the opponent's last chat line disappears by scrolling over the top of the chat window, and I realize I've been talking to myself for a while now. =D "
So much this.
I often finish a game with "well played - sorry for whining so much".
So much this.
I often finish a game with "well played - sorry for whining so much".
Posted by Badoek on 2013-07-25 11:59:54
good blog! Although I resent being called a pack ape. I'd rather be a pack monkey or pack mule fankjooverymuch.
I always feel :/ when there's more than 8 lines of me talking and even worse when you're still typing "well that was a fun game" and the other has already left so it's just you talking to yourself or any specs that can't reply. :s
I always feel :/ when there's more than 8 lines of me talking and even worse when you're still typing "well that was a fun game" and the other has already left so it's just you talking to yourself or any specs that can't reply. :s
Posted by Overhamsteren on 2013-07-25 12:22:40
The people who complained about empty phrases in the other blog aren't rebels they are just pretentious fools. :)
Posted by koadah on 2013-07-25 12:24:38
"GL" isn't usually hypocritical.
Most people should have the wit to realise that I'm not wishing them better luck than me. You may assume that I am also wishing good luck for myself so it is really 'fairly similar luck' that I'm after. But that doesn't quite have the same ring to it.
I have had some very funny games where both coaches had truly horrible luck. I don't want that every match though. "GL" works for me.
If what you really want is to grind the opponent's team to dust and win 8-0 then for sure, omitting GL sounds reasonable. You may want to omit HF too.
If you think that the opponent's team is a horrible overpowered CPOMB or min/max monstrosity then again, dropping the GL and/or HF seems fair.
"I hope your team is destroyed beyond repair." is one possible greeting. "Likewise." A reasonable response.
For the vast majority of games I play "GL & HF" is a fair and honest greeting.
For others "Blood for the Blood God!" or "To the death!" is more appropriate.
For a pre tournament team pimping it's "Let's hope no one dies."
Most people should have the wit to realise that I'm not wishing them better luck than me. You may assume that I am also wishing good luck for myself so it is really 'fairly similar luck' that I'm after. But that doesn't quite have the same ring to it.
I have had some very funny games where both coaches had truly horrible luck. I don't want that every match though. "GL" works for me.
If what you really want is to grind the opponent's team to dust and win 8-0 then for sure, omitting GL sounds reasonable. You may want to omit HF too.
If you think that the opponent's team is a horrible overpowered CPOMB or min/max monstrosity then again, dropping the GL and/or HF seems fair.
"I hope your team is destroyed beyond repair." is one possible greeting. "Likewise." A reasonable response.
For the vast majority of games I play "GL & HF" is a fair and honest greeting.
For others "Blood for the Blood God!" or "To the death!" is more appropriate.
For a pre tournament team pimping it's "Let's hope no one dies."
Posted by mister__joshua on 2013-07-25 12:42:17
For a pre tournament team pimping it's "Let's hope no one dies."
Haha. I always offer an "At least no-one died" or "at least no-one important died" as the scantest of consolations after a bad beating.
Haha. I always offer an "At least no-one died" or "at least no-one important died" as the scantest of consolations after a bad beating.
Posted by Elyoukey on 2013-07-25 13:24:16
very good post, explaining part of the social aspect in fumbbl.
What i really hate is the "sorry" when my opponent hurts or kill a player of mine. i think it also match this "social" pattern but i just hate that because it is sooo hypocrite. i tend to answer something like "no you are not" and "if you don't want to hurt my player don't hit them" because when i do hurt one of your player i am far to be sorry, i am happy and glad to make the game easier for me.
note that i may be a sociopath.
What i really hate is the "sorry" when my opponent hurts or kill a player of mine. i think it also match this "social" pattern but i just hate that because it is sooo hypocrite. i tend to answer something like "no you are not" and "if you don't want to hurt my player don't hit them" because when i do hurt one of your player i am far to be sorry, i am happy and glad to make the game easier for me.
note that i may be a sociopath.
Posted by Cavetroll on 2013-07-25 13:44:57
Glad to see I'm not the only person here who has stopped wishing his opponent luck. I want us both to have fun, but if anyone is going to be ridden like a government mule I want it to be the other guy.
However, I didn't get the whole 'howaya' thing and I am an American. Maybe this is a regional thing? Sounds like something New Yorkers would say. At least that's the accent I'm hearing in my head when I read it.
However, I didn't get the whole 'howaya' thing and I am an American. Maybe this is a regional thing? Sounds like something New Yorkers would say. At least that's the accent I'm hearing in my head when I read it.
Posted by C3I2 on 2013-07-25 14:54:13
Game theoretically speaking, I don´t want to get kills, as my opponent will apo that and bring the player back on. I´m more happy with BHs or MNG-SIs.
Anyway, I doubt we can blame the Americans. If I recall correctly this probably started with:
- How do you do?
- How do you do?
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/16312/do-you-really-answer-how-do-you-do-with-how-do-you-do
Now, I got to admit that I do not infrequently answer the non-Q even so! But in physical meetings things is a lot simpler, as you tend to copy the stance and handshake wo thinking about it. Unlike online were we lack a lot more information.
Anyway, I doubt we can blame the Americans. If I recall correctly this probably started with:
- How do you do?
- How do you do?
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/16312/do-you-really-answer-how-do-you-do-with-how-do-you-do
Now, I got to admit that I do not infrequently answer the non-Q even so! But in physical meetings things is a lot simpler, as you tend to copy the stance and handshake wo thinking about it. Unlike online were we lack a lot more information.
Posted by Meanandugl on 2013-07-25 15:08:47
@Elyoukey: imo there is nothing wrong with "sorry" in this case as long as you mean it. Of course I want to reduce my opponents numbers in order to improve my chances to win, and yes, I am happy if I get SPP for the CAS. But usually I aim for a bh, not a kill (except in stunty leeg games that count for the SPLAT-ranking).
btw like many others here I start the game most often (at minimum) with "Hi, have fun!", especially in ranked games when I don't know the opponent and have nothing special to say. And like many others I am embarrassed when my game partner doesn't chat at all, and disappointed, sometimes annoyed when someone leaves the game without any comment.
btw like many others here I start the game most often (at minimum) with "Hi, have fun!", especially in ranked games when I don't know the opponent and have nothing special to say. And like many others I am embarrassed when my game partner doesn't chat at all, and disappointed, sometimes annoyed when someone leaves the game without any comment.
Posted by pythrr on 2013-07-25 15:13:02
insightful and intelligent.
A (see me after class)
A (see me after class)
Posted by uzkulak on 2013-07-25 15:13:19
I agree with everything in the_Sage's excellent blog.
Only thing I will add is that *sometimes" I do feel genuinely bad/guilty/remorseful if I kill an opponent's player. Its just empathy - I know I wouldnt have enjoyed it if I were them. So if I say sorry I do mean it. I certainly dont say it every time, because there are plenty of occassions when Im not sorry at all :)
I dont want to derail this blog by starting a new debate, but the assumption that Im being a hypocrite by saying sorry after a death is a false one.
Only thing I will add is that *sometimes" I do feel genuinely bad/guilty/remorseful if I kill an opponent's player. Its just empathy - I know I wouldnt have enjoyed it if I were them. So if I say sorry I do mean it. I certainly dont say it every time, because there are plenty of occassions when Im not sorry at all :)
I dont want to derail this blog by starting a new debate, but the assumption that Im being a hypocrite by saying sorry after a death is a false one.
Posted by pythrr on 2013-07-25 15:13:59
C312:
"Game theoretically speaking, I don´t want to get kills, as my opponent will apo that and bring the player back on. I´m more happy with BHs or MNG-SIs."
--- err, who uses the new rubbish Apo on RIPS anymore? Only ever on BH.
"Game theoretically speaking, I don´t want to get kills, as my opponent will apo that and bring the player back on. I´m more happy with BHs or MNG-SIs."
--- err, who uses the new rubbish Apo on RIPS anymore? Only ever on BH.
Posted by pythrr on 2013-07-25 15:15:36
err, but killing a player is like taking a pawn in chess
why would one say sorry?
I find that kind of anthropomorphic identification with "mens" quite dislocative and worrying.
why would one say sorry?
I find that kind of anthropomorphic identification with "mens" quite dislocative and worrying.
Posted by koadah on 2013-07-25 15:18:47
@Elyoukey : Sorry is not hypocritical. A KO is often good enough to win the game. Losing players is part of the game but it can be frustrating. Sorry is acknowledging that your fun may have been reduced and that the opponent would have preferred less damage. BH/MNG is fine.
Of course you could take offence at the suggestion that you are some kind of wussy pixel hugger.
Personally I like to say something like "Oh yeah! Got him! Got him gooooood!" :twisted:
Of course you could take offence at the suggestion that you are some kind of wussy pixel hugger.
Personally I like to say something like "Oh yeah! Got him! Got him gooooood!" :twisted:
Posted by keggiemckill on 2013-07-25 17:10:13
I find this stuff very funny. Pack Apes, is a hilarious but true statement. Most people go with the flow. Never knowing where the leader is because they are trailing the other followers.
Does it matter if someone talks during a game? I honestly could have more fun not conversing with any of you during a game. I talk because I honestly want most of you to have just as much fun as I will be having. This game is fun. I enjoy it.
At the start of the game I yabber about, with an Ahoy hoy, or a hiya. Maybe even a hey hey. I mix that junk up. I say what comes instantly to mind. The only sterio typical phrase I do use is a Grats after a TD. I expect it from you. Don't be a punk. Because that is what you are when you don't converse. Punk is meant to be a derogatory term , for all you youngenz. By the way I never say "have fun" to an opponent. I say " let's hVe some Mother F*/!;:"ing Fun!" Because we both should have fun. It's not a one sided game. It's not computer chess. We are not competing in a gladiatorium. It is a game. A fun game. Don't be Punks.
Does it matter if someone talks during a game? I honestly could have more fun not conversing with any of you during a game. I talk because I honestly want most of you to have just as much fun as I will be having. This game is fun. I enjoy it.
At the start of the game I yabber about, with an Ahoy hoy, or a hiya. Maybe even a hey hey. I mix that junk up. I say what comes instantly to mind. The only sterio typical phrase I do use is a Grats after a TD. I expect it from you. Don't be a punk. Because that is what you are when you don't converse. Punk is meant to be a derogatory term , for all you youngenz. By the way I never say "have fun" to an opponent. I say " let's hVe some Mother F*/!;:"ing Fun!" Because we both should have fun. It's not a one sided game. It's not computer chess. We are not competing in a gladiatorium. It is a game. A fun game. Don't be Punks.
Posted by the_Sage on 2013-07-25 17:47:45
@ Badoek. Sorry. Apes are primates without tails, whereas monkeys are primates with tails. There's some other stuff too:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/zoology/mammals/monkeys-vs-apes.htm
@ Cavetroll: the issue isn't the pronunciation of 'how are you?', but rather that you're not actually asking after how I am. In my experience, it actually just means 'hi', invoking a response of 'how are you?' rather than a response of 'well, my mom just died' or 'I'm doing great! I just got my driver's license'.
@ Kaodah: as I said, I don't wish bad luck on the opponent; but 'good luck' suggests 'better than mine', which I would not mean. And wishing for fun over luck seems right for this game, as I too have had great fun while suffering terrible dicings.
@Elyoukey: I rarely enjoy permanently damaging players. Exceptions are opponent players that either make their teams unbalancedly good (like [url=http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=player&player_id=7986061]John Little[/url], or players that are built to kill, and not much else.
But whenever I cause something permanent such as RIP on a [url=http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=player&player_id=5437844]really good and fun player[/url], I do usually wish it had been BH or MNG instead.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/zoology/mammals/monkeys-vs-apes.htm
@ Cavetroll: the issue isn't the pronunciation of 'how are you?', but rather that you're not actually asking after how I am. In my experience, it actually just means 'hi', invoking a response of 'how are you?' rather than a response of 'well, my mom just died' or 'I'm doing great! I just got my driver's license'.
@ Kaodah: as I said, I don't wish bad luck on the opponent; but 'good luck' suggests 'better than mine', which I would not mean. And wishing for fun over luck seems right for this game, as I too have had great fun while suffering terrible dicings.
@Elyoukey: I rarely enjoy permanently damaging players. Exceptions are opponent players that either make their teams unbalancedly good (like [url=http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=player&player_id=7986061]John Little[/url], or players that are built to kill, and not much else.
But whenever I cause something permanent such as RIP on a [url=http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=player&player_id=5437844]really good and fun player[/url], I do usually wish it had been BH or MNG instead.
Posted by FatEddie on 2013-07-25 17:48:53
Intelligent and well reasoned dude; I definitely agree with what you say. I didn't expect anywhere near the attention that a blog about saying congrats would attract, but it's very interesting to hear the persepctive from a psychological point of view.
Posted by koadah on 2013-07-25 18:47:03
the_Sage:"'good luck' suggests 'better than mine'."
Well there is the problem then. Everyone speaks a completely different kind of English. :)
I would never have read it like that. That just doesn't seem logical.
Well there is the problem then. Everyone speaks a completely different kind of English. :)
I would never have read it like that. That just doesn't seem logical.
Posted by Wreckage on 2013-07-25 19:53:33
My experience was that I could say many different things from 'good luck' at the beginning of a match, including wishing misfortune. It was usually well recieved. Not saying anything is recieved poorly. Some coaches do get agitated if you wish their pixels pain and it might even affect their game.
I sometimes do get a little bit agitated myself over recieving a gratz. When my opponent just forced me to score it sometimes feels a bit like he is making fun of me and from my end it often looks like I just got beat. This has resulted in that I only respond with thx or thanks when I'm genuinly happy about it, otherwise I often say something else that just sounds like a thank you but isn't really one. Yet I never feel like starting a debate about it since I know my opponent just follows some not all that relevant social convention. On top of it, i gratulate my opponents too. And often enough I do make fun of them when I do it.
I sometimes do get a little bit agitated myself over recieving a gratz. When my opponent just forced me to score it sometimes feels a bit like he is making fun of me and from my end it often looks like I just got beat. This has resulted in that I only respond with thx or thanks when I'm genuinly happy about it, otherwise I often say something else that just sounds like a thank you but isn't really one. Yet I never feel like starting a debate about it since I know my opponent just follows some not all that relevant social convention. On top of it, i gratulate my opponents too. And often enough I do make fun of them when I do it.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2013-07-25 20:09:11
Well I'm I'm fine with unheartfelt etiquette like gl and hf. Ok, you don't want the luck to be uneven, however it doesn't necessarily mean that. I think as long as you come across as being polite and a nice guy to play, it doesn't really matter though.
Slightly off topic though, I find TL;DR comments highly insulting. If it's too long, then don't get involved. Anyone who tl;dr's me. Be prepared for stormy waters.
Slightly off topic though, I find TL;DR comments highly insulting. If it's too long, then don't get involved. Anyone who tl;dr's me. Be prepared for stormy waters.
Posted by the_Sage on 2013-07-25 22:11:46
TL;DR comments may not be all that nice, but providing a TL;DR bit above a wall of text and letting people choose to read or not is good practice imo. =)
Posted by the_Sage on 2013-07-25 22:18:43
Kaodah:"I would never have read it like that. That just doesn't seem logical."
That's because the words in the statement are not the message you are really sending. If you say to an athlete 'good luck' before a game, it usually means something along the lines of 'I hope you win'. If you say 'good luck' to someone going for a job interview, it means 'I hope you get the job'.
So saying good luck to an opponent doesn't make much sense, same as saying it to someone going for the same job you want. We still do it, because that's the polite thing to do. But we don't mean the actual contents of the word.
More appropriate would perhaps be 'may the best man win'.
That's because the words in the statement are not the message you are really sending. If you say to an athlete 'good luck' before a game, it usually means something along the lines of 'I hope you win'. If you say 'good luck' to someone going for a job interview, it means 'I hope you get the job'.
So saying good luck to an opponent doesn't make much sense, same as saying it to someone going for the same job you want. We still do it, because that's the polite thing to do. But we don't mean the actual contents of the word.
More appropriate would perhaps be 'may the best man win'.
Posted by koadah on 2013-07-26 01:29:04
@the_Sage: This is quite interesting really. The way that you use English is not the way that I use English.
To me "Good luck" before a job interview or exam means literally that I hope that you are lucky and get questions that suit you and an examiner that doesn't hate you. ;)
"I hope you pass/get the job" are different to good luck. I would say those things separately and not use good luck to mean them.
I don't use "good luck" for "I hope you win". More I hope you don't have bad luck. Don't false start, break a leg, get a bad referee etc.
If I'm supporting someone I will tell them straight that I hope that they will win.
"May the best man win" is all wrong for blood bowl. Luck is part of the game I just don't want so much luck that the game is ruined.
To me "Good luck" before a job interview or exam means literally that I hope that you are lucky and get questions that suit you and an examiner that doesn't hate you. ;)
"I hope you pass/get the job" are different to good luck. I would say those things separately and not use good luck to mean them.
I don't use "good luck" for "I hope you win". More I hope you don't have bad luck. Don't false start, break a leg, get a bad referee etc.
If I'm supporting someone I will tell them straight that I hope that they will win.
"May the best man win" is all wrong for blood bowl. Luck is part of the game I just don't want so much luck that the game is ruined.
Posted by the_Sage on 2013-07-26 12:54:13
Regardless of the use of English, I think I disagree with your opinion on luck as well (see *edit: on luck section above).
Posted by B_SIDE on 2013-07-26 13:42:56
"Howdy" is an informal American greeting.
Used to be "How do you do?"
Rated 6.
Used to be "How do you do?"
Rated 6.
Posted by Beerox on 2013-07-26 20:17:20
So tired of social norm greetings. I don't want to tell you how I'm doing. To be honest, I haven't put much thought into that lately. I also don't wish you luck.
How bout we just type in something that will cause the other person to laugh. Or more likely, cause them to think you're crazy.
This sounds more fun.
How bout we just type in something that will cause the other person to laugh. Or more likely, cause them to think you're crazy.
This sounds more fun.
Posted by the_Sage on 2013-07-30 13:29:52
In relation to Americans, greetings, etc:
http://markmanson.net/america
Maybe a nice read for cavetroll =P
http://markmanson.net/america
Maybe a nice read for cavetroll =P