BB-Pad
Joined: May 05, 2004
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 Posted:
Jun 02, 2005 - 13:44 |
 
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We seem to be diverging from Christer's aim of improving ranked. There are plenty of agility vs bashing & cherrypicking threads already.
| thesquig wrote: | | I've read the topic so far and come to a few obvious conclusions that we should bear in mind. The idea of an open format is great and this is what we all love about fumbbl. However, I believe making the open format competative is where the system is flawed. Its too open to abuse, ie cherrypicking. |
But, if I understood him correctly, I think Squig has hit the nail on the head here. Ranked can either be an open division where you can get a game whenever you want OR it is a competitive division. Just not both without the problems mentioned (and the endless whining). So I think Fumbbl needs to decide which of these it should be.
If ranked is to be a competitive division then new coaches shouldn't tend towards starting there (I did and I'm sure most people did, ignoring the user guide in their hurry to play online blood bowl for the first time). As already suggested to do this the main chat channel shouldn't be for ranked - it needs it's own channel. Unranked needs to be described as the main open division that allows play-run tournies (not as the "tourney division").
Regarding a competitive division, Big Mac described a system whereby teams with win % below a certain level were removed. I think the idea has merit so perhaps someone would be interested in setting up a group like the EMU using Ranked teams and posting scores on a forum to test how successful and popular such a format would be. If it works, then maybe Christer will kindly implement it onto the site so no further player-lead admin is required. |
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xcver
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
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Jun 02, 2005 - 13:55 |
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I find it great in itself that you serve this infrastructure and I've only been here 2 months but am already a great fan. Keep up the gogod work. I like R as it is. There is no problem with it as some people scream it to be. |
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Tommi
Joined: May 17, 2004
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Jun 02, 2005 - 14:27 |
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Circular sure had good ideas about TS, TS should and can be tweaked. I disagree about some formulas though, should be thought over.
Another thing I would like to see, is an encouragement for playing vs. "hard teams for your race". Medals was good, but we could come up with something better too.
Circular suggested also tweaking of CR system, but I dont see that absolutely necessary. |
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monboesen
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 02, 2005 - 14:36 |
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I'd like to place my vote with the "a league can't be both open and competetive" opinion.
Make the U into the O(pen) league. Make that the default league and force all newcomers to make their first team and first x (5?) matches in that league. I agree on making it the first option on any pop-up menu as well.
That way the many (vast majority ?) of coaches who utterly don't care about CR and think TS is completely bull anyway can move their current R teams there. Make it a 5 teams maximum league and tag all teams in current tournements with a T and make them unable to play in the regular divisions. Any coach ending up with more than five teams is made unable to play games until he cuts down to five.
The coaches who do care about R can keep their teams there and continue playing (IMO it still won't be competive). Whether the CR system should be changed or not I simply do not care enough about to even try figuring out. |
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thesquig
Joined: Apr 11, 2004
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Jun 02, 2005 - 15:48 |
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| BB-Pad wrote: |
| thesquig wrote: | | I've read the topic so far and come to a few obvious conclusions that we should bear in mind. The idea of an open format is great and this is what we all love about fumbbl. However, I believe making the open format competative is where the system is flawed. Its too open to abuse, ie cherrypicking. |
But, if I understood him correctly, I think Squig has hit the nail on the head here. Ranked can either be an open division where you can get a game whenever you want OR it is a competitive division. Just not both without the problems mentioned (and the endless whining). So I think Fumbbl needs to decide which of these it should be. |
You have indeed understood me correctly. Its becoming more and more obvious that the best coaches dont have the highest CR. Like someone mentioned ealier, some of the best coaches are the the coaches that play only a few games a week, but win them and so have CR 160ish.
The way ranked is at the moment, coaches are rewarded for playing easier games and opponents and therefore not testing themselves. This is one of the fundamental flaws (but a huge bonus in some ways) of an open division. I say make U Divx and stunty the only divisions with an open format, but keep them uncompetative. This will leave the Ranked division to be competative but not an open division as such, or at least put limitations on the open format like the medal system suggested. |
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Smess
Joined: Feb 13, 2004
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Jun 02, 2005 - 16:08 |
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Fairly, I think those changes like squig propose would be to drastic. What we are looking for is to keep ranked as it is, an open division, but at the same inrease its competiveness. By, for example, finding ways to reward coaches that play difficult games for their race, play every race, or don't solely play coaches under 155 CR. That is how i see it, and i believe that was wat christer intended whit this post.
Lets not start spawning propositions about a new division structure, but try finding ways to improve ranked as it is now.
Oh, and next time I post, I'll try to come up with an actual proposition  |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 03, 2005 - 01:51 |
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I've held off on wading into this discussion. I was really tempted to just scream "Do It Yourself!"
Don't like Cherrypicking? Do it yourself: Don't cherrypick. Don't play cherrypickers. Start up an anti-cherrypicking group (E.L.F.). Play in another division that discourages cherrypicking (Faction, Ladder, and Unranked Tournaments).
Don't like to play the Coach Rank Hunting Game? Do it yourself: Don't play Ranked. Move your teams to Unranked and do your part to make it a viable Open gaming environment.
Want challenges? Do it yourself: Make a ladder team and challenge away.
Want a competitive environment? Do it yourself: Play Faction. Join a league.
Want to focus on building a team and not worry about CR? Do it yourself: Play div X.
Want medals? Do it yourself: Create some funky graphics. Create criteria. Create a group. Hand out medals.
Want something wild and wacky? Do it yourself: FUMBBL can be used to play Blood Bowl in so many ways. If you look around, most of your wishes can be fufilled somewhere on FUMBBL. Unranked is incredibly flexible. I'm amazed at the creativity of some of our members. If you are looking for something that's not currently available: start a group, gather up likeminded people, brainstorm in the forums and do it yourself.
I'm not trying to discourage suggestions, critiques and new concepts, I just think ideas should be acted upon. FUMBBL provides you with so many resources. Take advantage of them. Put your ideas into action. Then when you are looking for help in implementing a more "official" plan, you'll have more weight behind your suggestions.
As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism
Democracy Lite |
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Mithrilpoint
Joined: Mar 16, 2004
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Jun 03, 2005 - 02:26 |
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Halleluja! Sing it from the moutain, Evo!.
I agree. Really i do. Stop complaining and lead by the example. Amen. ( my own interpretation)
My suggestion : Leave Ranked as it is, leave CR as it is, maybe tweak TS and the championship formula a bit (some good suggestions here in this thread and other places as well imo) and for heavens sake stop imposing your perception on how the game should be played on other coaches. Stop the "you´re a cherrypicker" -threads, the fouling threads, the wimp-elf threads and find a way to have fun instead. We´re zounds of coaches here, all intending to have a fun time, find your peers and play them. Heck, play anybody once, most people twice and so on.
Only 1(one) person on FUMBBL is allowed to impose stuff on other coaches and thats Christer. All imo, off course.
Discussion is good, whining is bad. Understand the difference.
M |
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Uber
Joined: Mar 22, 2004
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Jun 03, 2005 - 03:45 |
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Amen to that Evo, join the ELF !!!  |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 03, 2005 - 04:19 |
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| Quote: |
Want something wild and wacky? Do it yourself: FUMBBL can be used to play Blood Bowl in so many ways. If you look around, most of your wishes can be fufilled somewhere on FUMBBL. Unranked is incredibly flexible. I'm amazed at the creativity of some of our members. If you are looking for something that's not currently available: start a group, gather up likeminded people, brainstorm in the forums and do it yourself
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Double AMEN!
Some of tyhe best coaches are ALREADY moving away from ranked. Look at BB-Pads Orca Cola Group - over 100 teams with good coaches. Look at the SWL, the best coaches from down under. Most of us KNOW who the top coaches are .... we dont need a CR rating to tell us that.
Keep everything the way it is, there is somehting for everyone. The only major change Id like to see is to bring back the Team Rankings. Sure they were flawed, but so is CR, so why not let the geeks who enjoy team rankings get something out of that as well. |
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Laviak
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
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Jun 03, 2005 - 05:33 |
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I think that the only think that makes unrenked less attractive to me (than ranked) is that you get a whole lot more unbalanced races (read: Pact and Stunty). Not really a big deal though, 'cause all you have to do is refuse to play games against non LRB teams - problem solved.
The easiest way to encourage more people to play in another division is to do it yourself. Want to be able to find games in div-x? Make a team in div-x, encourage the people you enjoy playing against to create a ladder team as well, and give it a go. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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Jun 03, 2005 - 08:38 |
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cough cough
Amen to Evo and the following guys
Hey I don't really see the need of a chenge in Ranked BUT If I don't have ideas for improving R I don't tell other: do as me: don't searcg.
In my opinion you try to get high in CR to be proud of your score and be able to think "I am number X coach in FUMBBL"
Now a simple idea is to write beneath that number the average coach ranking of the opposing coaches you played. A TR 175 (avg opponent 135) just make obvious he isn't that worth.
Make the first games of noobs not tocount: I first thought it was a good idea, but finally, I think it's not the right problem: Well a default division should be an open uncompetitive group. Making noobs first games doesn't count means R is the default division wich is false IMO. |
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Funso
Joined: Apr 05, 2004
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Jun 03, 2005 - 12:09 |
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Evo, I think you are right in one sense. People whining, should try and do something themselves.
On the other hand, it would be nice to have Fumbbl's flagship division (the main division, which now is ranked as that is where the games are played) be a serious competition. It isn't.
Now, I am quite happy with R the way it is, because I play Faction and like most other, use Ranked as just a place to play with experimental teams or to have fun, and am not at all competetive with my Ranked teams. But I can understand those who wish Ranked to be a serious competition. One of the things TBBers hate about Fumbbl (I was in Nottingham a couple of weeks ago with some friends from TBB, and Fumbbl always comes up) is that it's main division is pretty pointless. They have a point. |
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LordSnotball
Joined: Nov 05, 2004
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Jun 03, 2005 - 13:21 |
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Heh, ok, next time i see someone starting their ranked complaints with the argument 'as we all know, the ranking formula is flawed' i'll scream... maybe i should look around for a 'flogging a dead horse' animated picture...
amen brotha! |
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Ironik
Joined: Jun 28, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 03, 2005 - 13:45 |
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have a good idea!
Lets all meet in UK assault JJ and beat him up, for all the reason we want!
What you think?
On the other hand:
I like Christer idea.
(am I a weird?) |
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