HunterX
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 05, 2007 - 19:05 |
 
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altus_bellator
Joined: Oct 12, 2005
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Feb 05, 2007 - 19:26 |
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First, thanks Bacil for the earlier kudos. Just catching up from a brief Hiatus.
I may have missed it, my apologies if that is the case but did anyone comment on the 2 fringe divisions with a cap of 100-125 for one and 126-150 for the other? That seems like a great idea and would solve many problems wouldn't it? |
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Da_Todfatha
Joined: Jul 06, 2004
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Feb 05, 2007 - 20:49 |
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The problem becomes what if there are not enough teams for one of those? I mean you are proposing a Fringe Fringe. After 1 season do we add another? Fringe-fringe-fringe?
I would much rather keep it like it is and give coaches some ability to "skill up" their teams so if they fail to get games and the season starts, well at least they know it was their fault.
If the teams allow it I can sort out the Upper teams from the lower, but as someone else mentioned if there are two Conferences then the winner of each will move up, and if one started out at TR 100, they will be less developed and still move up, which could be ugly in VET. I did attempt to make the conferences equal, ie same number of rookie teams, high tr teams, etc. But still is not perfect, putting the onus on the coaches rather than the admin staff is better, I think.  |
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Shaka808
Joined: Jul 13, 2006
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Feb 06, 2007 - 00:57 |
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| Bacillen wrote: |
I think the TR cap of 150 for fringe is also fine - new teams (and coaches going for the retire & replace option) are not supposed to have it easy. Playing TR150 teams with TR100 teams is really not that big a deal either - people do it all the time in the SWL and there are TR100 teams that win SWL regional divisions and promote ahead of cut-back TR150 demotees (my Orcs did this for example, but it's not that uncommon).
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And thats the exact reason of me leaving the SWL this season. Last season my newbie team (forced to be humans or a squishy team because all high AV basher types are taken already) faces tr 150 basher teams 3 games in a row then my tr 100 opponent doesnt show up then I play another tr 150 basher team. This season im set to once again play 5 tr150 Heavy basher teams with my barely above newbie humans. This is NOT fun nor healthy for long term enjoyment or bringing in new players. Now this works for SWL because they are
1. for the most part all coaches are in the same clique
2. Dont need to encourage new players to show up as they already have over 30 teams.
It doesnt need to be easy OR fair but it HAS to be fun or have at least some kind of light at the end of the tunnel. Other than hey mr new guy thanks for playing we have this horrible gauntlet set up for you to go through but if you get lucky youll still be alive to try again next year! Get lucky 3 seasons in a row and you MIGHT make it to the bigger leagues.
To which you respond with uhm why is MY newbie teams conference have 5x TR 150 Chaos,orc,khemri teams but that other new guys conference only has 1 and your response is well you werent lucky he was.
That sort of scenario is a terrific way of making sure youll never get any new players around who dont have some sort of personal investment in your league to begin with. Now the NWL being new it doesnt have this problem yet but eventually it will if it keeps growing and generally the older players take the camp of suck it up and stop crying, where the newer players and prospective joiners just say screw it and leave. |
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Kami
Joined: May 15, 2006
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Feb 06, 2007 - 16:32 |
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Bacillen
Joined: Aug 03, 2005
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Feb 06, 2007 - 23:48 |
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Oww what a horror of an SWL experience there Shaka.
I guess I mighta had it easy drafting Orcs !
There were only 3 demotees in my single regional season too - a nasty undead team and an elf team who I think won it. There were 2 other new teams in with me (orges and necros) and the other 3 all had a failed season in the regionals and TRs around the 130 mark. Really quite a different picture to your tale of horror and woe..so I guess luck of the draw plays a huge part (which is so BB).
I gotta say that having 1 regional sport 5 TR150 basher teams and the other just 1 is totally out of order. I thought all that paper/rock/scissor (baller/basher/betweener) stuff was set up to balance that a bit ! But I don't really know how they draw the divs..so if it didn't go that way and you got mashed by it then that was a massive failing of that format.
Maybe there is a good case for a 4th division then ?
Like fringe (125) - rookie (150) - veteran (190) - pro (235) or something.
Might help with another "problem" the SWL often has - some seasons where there are a lot of new entrants at regional (fringe) level...meaning the commish's have to do some fancy footwork to get divisions sized right...only for a small number of those coaches to decide it's not for them anyway. The fringe here could really be quite a fluid place...shielding the rookie division from a lot of those comings and goings while they build for the veteran level.
Another division makes the climb to the top all the more worthwhile I guess too  |
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ozjesting
Joined: Jan 27, 2004
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Feb 07, 2007 - 02:23 |
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While I understand some of the concerns raised here I think it is fair in defense of the SWL camp to offer the following...
Yes...some new teams do find themselves up against it in their first season against the conference teams that have relegated. But we have MANY examples of teams that have survived the "gauntlet" and gone on to bigger and better things. We make NO apology for this. In fact we take it as a badge of honour to survive such a blooding in what has proven to be one of the toughest leagues available on FUMBBL. I would also suggest that Shaka is being somewhat misleading in his experience. In the current season his "barely above newbie" Human team is in fact rated 138/128, has 12 players, 3 RR, FF9 4 Blitzers AND an Ogre! This is MORE than enough to swing it against 150 teams regardless of race! He would have been well placed to build up for a proper run at next season had he been so inclined...and in the SWL we favour LONG TERM commitment to the "fun" not a smash and grab run on the titles! He also would have been well placed to have an actual run at the ladder imho with such a squad.
It doesn't need to be easy OR fair but it HAS to be fun or have at least some kind of light at the end of the tunnel.
This is simply a matter of interpretation. We think it IS fair given the long term goals of our teams...it certainly is NOT easy and as far as we are concerned THAT is what makes it FUN I can see where some may not agree...but our rule book and players in general are upfront about all this to everyone who applies! We are not sneaky, misleading or unfair in our assignments. There is no "massive failing" in our system due to any of this as far as we are concerned. It works and has worked for quite awhile now. In fact the ONLY complaints are always cases such as these...where a player has failed to really contemplate the nature of the undertaking before signing up. We have no "team killer" attitude (although teams DO get killed ) and all coaches are always looking ahead.
I am not so glib as to suggest the "suck it up and stop crying" line...but I believe in THIS case Shaka quit before he even tried...and THAT is simply not "fun" for anyone.
Oh..we have also toyed with the discussion of the 4th division...but here is what we have discovered...once those teams have a "soft" season they are JUST as likely to be upset when those teams that had such an easy run are whacked once they join the big boys...and commitment is just as problematic. They lose a few early games and then just "retire" and wait to go soft again next season. A TR100 team is just as likely to smash up another TR100 as is a TR diff game of -12...which is all Shaka would have faced in his first game. Even with a ST diff of -15 he would have been well placed to compete.
Better to shake them out in the "gauntlet" then bed them in on a field of silk
I hope the NWL stays true to the strength...this game is NEVER fair and ALWAYS tough...or at least it SHOULD be if you are for real around here.
Sorry to interrupt...now go play! |
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Say GO AWAY to CuddleBunny! |
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Meech
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
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Feb 07, 2007 - 02:28 |
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Find someone who had a harder first string of games than me.
Sometimes you have to suck it up and kleep playing. |
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Putting the FU in fumbbl since 9/2005 |
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Fool
Joined: Sep 16, 2004
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Feb 07, 2007 - 02:59 |
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Regardless of how you feel about the SWL, Shaka, bailing out mid-season does not reflect well on you as a coach. If you make a commitment to play a tourney, then finish what you start - fun or not. |
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Shaka808
Joined: Jul 13, 2006
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Feb 07, 2007 - 03:04 |
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| foolwholaughsatdeath wrote: | | Regardless of how you feel about the SWL, Shaka, bailing out mid-season does not reflect well on you as a coach. If you make a commitment to play a tourney, then finish what you start - fun or not. |
I did NOT bail out mid season I sent an email before the season even began to which the admins say they never received - I cleared that up with clay.
Once again I posted on the SWL thread about attacking me here - if people want to attack me with assumptions and non facts please pm me or put it somewhere else where it belongs. |
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Fool
Joined: Sep 16, 2004
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Feb 07, 2007 - 03:24 |
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Shaka,
I didnt realize this was the case. If you let them know before the season started, then I have absolutely no beef with that. I assumed from Quod's post on the SWL thread that you had left mid-season and made my previous statement based on that. I apologize if you felt I was attacking you.
I do feel very strongly that people should finish what they start. People bailing in the middle of tournaments impacts everyone else and detracts from others enjoyment. |
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altus_bellator
Joined: Oct 12, 2005
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Feb 07, 2007 - 13:46 |
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At some point, once we get the finer details worked out in the NWL, we should have a NWL Vs SWL "Superbowl" if you will. 
Even though it clearly wouldn't be fair, and any NWL team would totally destroy any SWL competition (Smack talk = fun)
Has this ever been discussed? |
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Da_Todfatha
Joined: Jul 06, 2004
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Feb 07, 2007 - 14:04 |
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We talked about it a long time ago, and Whitesun brought it up last night. In lieu of recent posts on both the SWL and NWL threads regarding one of our coaches, I sent an email to SWL Admin this morning to suggest that at least our top team could play their top team since neither league has a "Championship Match".
Although I don't want anyone else to do my dirty work, and I hoped to be the one to crush Celas' Wood elves. Bah, Altus is right, those Aussies and Kiwis can't beat Celas. <--Hey! Smack Talk does = fun. |
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Meech
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
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Feb 07, 2007 - 14:12 |
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The "Super" bowl would work fine if the NWL and the SWL uses the same guidlelines and rules. Is that the case? |
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Putting the FU in fumbbl since 9/2005 |
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Da_Todfatha
Joined: Jul 06, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 07, 2007 - 19:45 |
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Nope, just similar, not the same. I beleive we will make up for anydeficit through sheer NA coaching ability. And stubborn determination. barring that, we could play dirty. |
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