| Poll |
| SHould the TS rebate be removed? |
| Remove the TS rebate |
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58% |
[ 109 ] |
| Keep things as they are |
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23% |
[ 43 ] |
| Keep things as they are, but fix the Leader thing |
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18% |
[ 34 ] |
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| Total Votes : 186 |
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Shrap
Joined: Sep 18, 2006
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 Posted:
Jan 13, 2009 - 23:51 |
 
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@Circ I'm going to assume that you were being facetious about my cherrypicking in order to prove some point about my "baseless" cherrypicking comment earlier. OK. The 0rr-leader exploit is a sleazy way to win games the same as picking newbs in ranked. Same kinda scum would do both.
@Chingis you would have to compare the win-loss records of teh exploiters with and w/o the rerolls. I watched one exploiter the other day and he was a terrible coach the only team he played enough to see how good he was was his chaos team that was 6/8/26. His 0rr dwarves are 15/3/13 (this 0rr-er was not a cherrypicker in ranked mind you). So unless there are a lot of coaches using the exploit you wont get a decent crosssection to make a real determiation. Mind you his team was the one that had 4mb 5 guard and a +ST and only had a 118 rating.
I guess I'm a bit more emotional than some people are when I come across something that smells of cheating then I react. I know some ppl don't have that strong of a reaction to things like that...I know quite a few ppl that like and hang out with known scumbags in real life too.
I prefer not to tolerate it myself. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Jan 14, 2009 - 02:28 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: | | Thing is, with these teams prone to luck, that it depends less on the opponent coaching skill (like Silly points out). |
Actually that wasnt really what I was suggesting, I was saying that its currently an effecive tactic because you have a considerable advantage before anyone even rolls any dice, you simply have a better team.
| JanMattys wrote: | And while I understand that TS is a measurement, and not a way to enforce a certain behaviour, I deeply dislike the approaches that maximize luck factor.
You know why? Because they are not win-oriented. That's why I feel uncomfortable in front of 0 rrs teams. The decision to make yourself more prone to luck is an indication you don't do all you can to be competitive. |
I disagree with you here for two distinct reasons:
1) The reason people are taking these teams is to give their team an edge over other peoples teams (aka powergaming, you see it alot in 40k). Thats about as far from being luck based as you can get - its a tangible advantage that you are garunteed. Sure you might get unlucky and lose despite your advantage but you are stacking the odds in your favour even before you've hit the field.
2) Personally I dont think that foregoing re-rolls is the same as giving yourself up to Nuffle. Personally when I play I am playing to win and I dont risk that on something I might fail. Watch the way my skaven have played and hopefully you'll see that coaching plays a massive role in my games, even with no RR you are still being forced to weigh up risk vs reward and keep a grasp on contingency plans.
Actually the question of "move early or move late?" when trying to free the ball becomes much more of a conundrum, on the one hand you want to move after seeing if the ball is free and where its gone but on the other you dont want to risk missing out on the chance to move at all. With RR you can afford to be more aggressive (and can get away with poor play much more frequently) but without them you have to be much more conservative, carefully weighing up possibilities and covering as many eventualities as possible. |
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Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 14, 2009 - 12:26 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | sk8bcn wrote: | | Thing is, with these teams prone to luck, that it depends less on the opponent coaching skill (like Silly points out). |
Actually that wasnt really what I was suggesting, I was saying that its currently an effecive tactic because you have a considerable advantage before anyone even rolls any dice, you simply have a better team. |
Yes, You have a better roster with 0 reroll. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 14, 2009 - 12:31 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | 1) The reason people are taking these teams is to give their team an edge over other peoples teams (aka powergaming, you see it alot in 40k). Thats about as far from being luck based as you can get - its a tangible advantage that you are garunteed. Sure you might get unlucky and lose despite your advantage but you are stacking the odds in your favour even before you've hit the field. |
Silly, actually, we have 1 name that does better with his reroll-less dorfs than in general.
Let's say this.
Try to prove you're effective with something else as flings, in B, with 0 or 1 reroll and WITHOUT (what is a big point) abusing of leader.
Then prove you are doing better thus that the rebate doesn't make sense in term of team likelyness to win.
(ps: Remind that if someone want to see the rebate gone for the reasons JanMattys invoked, I am then ok; I am just arguing about the overpowerness of 0reroll teams, if leader is fixed). |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Jan 14, 2009 - 15:06 |
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sk8, so far I havent lost a game while playing with no re-rolls and no chef and no leader. However thats a sample of only 3-4 games where on average I wouldnt lose anyway. Also notice that I dont want the rebate gone, I want it reduced just a little and for the chef/leader abuses to be taken out... that way the rebate will actually be fair. Once you've made the rebate fair and taken the abuses out I suspect that the craze will pretty much die out, obviously some people would still enjoy the challenge though. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 14, 2009 - 16:35 |
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True, I remember now that you said you propose -4/-8.
I was mislead by your "you have a considerable advantage before anyone even rolls any dice"
As I assumed that everyone agrees on the fact the leader thing has to be sorted out, I did understand this as:
(even if the leader bug is fixed, with the rebate).. you have a considerable advantage before anyone even rolls any dice.
(But that's not your opinion as you propose -4/-8
| SillySod wrote: | | sk8bcn wrote: | | Thing is, with these teams prone to luck, that it depends less on the opponent coaching skill (like Silly points out). |
Actually that wasnt really what I was suggesting, I was saying that its currently an effecive tactic because you have a considerable advantage before anyone even rolls any dice, you simply have a better team. |
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westerner
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
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| Posted:
Jan 14, 2009 - 16:43 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | With RR you can afford to be more aggressive (and can get away with poor play much more frequently) but without them you have to be much more conservative, carefully weighing up possibilities and covering as many eventualities as possible. |
Aye. One thing 0-RR has taught me (rather brutally) is to make moves in order of risk/reward. To the point where if I roll doubleskulls I kick myself if even one move was wasted. |
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Texan
Joined: Dec 14, 2005
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| Posted:
Jan 14, 2009 - 16:46 |
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Pie. |
_________________
Pie--cherry. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Jan 14, 2009 - 17:13 |
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When I was talking about teams being overpowered for their TS I was referring to the current system including all the current bugs and abuses. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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lawman
Joined: Oct 07, 2008
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| Posted:
Jan 16, 2009 - 05:00 |
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I am no-reroll user, but overtime i am seeing how easy it is to abuse. But, I do it because norse suck at high level and they die fast. Also re-rolls should not be worth 60K for norse anyway, as of all teams they tend to need it least (having only a 1/36 failure of the primary block skill) and 6 MV. I do it because it makes absolutely no sense to add value to a team that does not need to "reroll" anything other than the 1/36 times they fail a block. GFI is the only thing I ever use rerolls for when my passers/catchers are on the field. Therefore, I am not "abusing" the system, just playing norse the way they should be played.
Now if I play dwarf maybe lol. Well chaos, probably not because they fail too much.
Still, I would go for an adaption of the rules giving leaders more worth or no-reroll a lessor penalty. Or making re-rolls for norse 30K TS worth  |
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Snappy_Dresser
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
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| Posted:
Jan 16, 2009 - 06:01 |
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| lawman wrote: | I am no-reroll user, but overtime i am seeing how easy it is to abuse. But, I do it because norse suck at high level and they die fast. Also re-rolls should not be worth 60K for norse anyway, as of all teams they tend to need it least (having only a 1/36 failure of the primary block skill) and 6 MV. I do it because it makes absolutely no sense to add value to a team that does not need to "reroll" anything other than the 1/36 times they fail a block. GFI is the only thing I ever use rerolls for when my passers/catchers are on the field. Therefore, I am not "abusing" the system, just playing norse the way they should be played.
Now if I play dwarf maybe lol. Well chaos, probably not because they fail too much.
Still, I would go for an adaption of the rules giving leaders more worth or no-reroll a lessor penalty. Or making re-rolls for norse 30K TS worth |
I can vouch for Lawman being a very effective, if unorthodox Norse player. I did, however, beat him with my goblins, so the value of the TS "bonus" in this case was questionable. |
_________________
<PurpleChest> the way it splooshed got me so excited
"I hear that shadow is a douchebag"
-Mr Foulscumm |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Jan 16, 2009 - 10:11 |
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| Snappy_Dresser wrote: | | I can vouch for Lawman being a very effective, if unorthodox Norse player. I did, however, beat him with my goblins ... |
Master of the back-handed compliment as always!  |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 16, 2009 - 10:31 |
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lawman's exemple highlight the other problem: For me 5TS a handicap is overated. If we did (as the original intention) play with handicap banned, his record would shrink. |
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lawman
Joined: Oct 07, 2008
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| Posted:
Jan 17, 2009 - 07:00 |
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I agree with all the above comments. I got goals for my team in B. Once I reach those goals I'll probably stop playing them. That or even buy some rerolls ;0 |
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Gatts
Joined: Jun 18, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 17, 2009 - 09:47 |
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To try the reroll thingy out i made myself 2 vampire teams, one entirely without rerolls and one with a rather regular amount of them. Wish em luck, oh and can i get any bets on what team will be more sucsesfull? |
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