JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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 Posted:
Mar 05, 2005 - 18:24 |
 
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| Quote: | | it isn't just the dp. There are other stuff like the Stand Firm. Stand Firm is useless if it can't save you from failed dodges. The only reason I choose SF instead of side step is because it saves me from failed dodges. |
/me agrees with Captain1821. |
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monboesen
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 05, 2005 - 18:30 |
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I don't. Stand Firm makes it risk free to Dodge. The only skill in the game that does so for any action. It's a very good call in opinion.
Just look at the name. Stand Firm. As in holding your ground. Planting your feet to avoid being pushed around. Its not the skill "Risk free dodge".
Anyway it still has great impact because of Guard and Side line play. Against dedicated frenziers you need SF or you can forget about anything but a drive up the middle. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Mar 05, 2005 - 19:26 |
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I may agree about the "name".
Still, SF is good BECAUSE of a risk free dodge. As a trait it would plain suck. Who would waste a double just for a skill that just makes pushbacks useless? It would be nice as a skill, but as a double... well... it is not. |
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Tinkywinky
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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Mar 05, 2005 - 19:27 |
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Also worth adding is that you will be able to take stand firm as a standard skill now for those that has strength access. I see this as a huge + for dwarfs and orcs. Most of the time you have placed your guard where he wants to be, not one square away from the perfect location so I think it's usually better for a blocking type player. For catchers sidestep is obviously better than the new stand firm. Grab is another new skill for the bashers. The future dwarf teams will be so much more interesting than the all guard/mb we have now. Of course if you think that stand firm and grab is much weaker than mb you just go ahead and stick with mb. |
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thmbscrws
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 05, 2005 - 19:29 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | I may agree about the "name".
Still, SF is good BECAUSE of a risk free dodge. As a trait it would plain suck. Who would waste a double just for a skill that just makes pushbacks useless? It would be nice as a skill, but as a double... well... it is not. |
It isn't a trait in vault. There are no traits in vault thats why SF was made weaker because it's a str skill now. |
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thmbscrws
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 05, 2005 - 19:31 |
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Good point Tinkywinky. I didn't think about the fact that the new skills could lead to dwarf teams with some variety. |
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vanGorn
Joined: Feb 24, 2004
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Mar 05, 2005 - 20:14 |
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May the inducements even up the chances better than the handicaps do. |
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Captain1821
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
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Mar 05, 2005 - 20:57 |
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no traits? this sucks!
By the way Side Step + Guard is much better than Stand Firm + Guard. There are a lot guard side step players and everyone that was one in his team, knows their value. Everyone that faced them, know that they are a pain.
As for the name of Stand Firm, it means that you stay on your feet that means noone can puss you or bring you down by tackling you.
Jump up loses only the blitz action and keeps the important part. The important part of SF is to save you from turn overs caused by failed dodges.
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"Throw Team-Mate now requires a 4+ roll to pick up the Right Stuff player."
"Instead of using passing rules, the throw is automatically made but only up to a number of squares equal to the thrower's ST away, counted from the thrower's square."
"Thrown players always scatter 3 times, and again if a player is in the landing square."
"Pass no longer applies to Throw Team-Mate."
Why killing the TTM ability of Orcs, Ogres, Goblins and Halflings?
If those rules reach the stunty league then one of the funniest parts of Stunty will die.
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Fend
Kick-off Return
Juggernaut
Stand Firm
Those skills will not be very popular while a player can gain 6 skills max.
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"Multiple Block deleted."
"Razor Sharp Claw or Fangs deleted."
Please no 
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"Once a Teams Value (TV) passes 1,500,000gps, then for every 200,000gp, the team must pay 10,000gps per match to cover the costs of running the team. If these cannot be paid using funds from the treasury, the debt is written off."
People like to play in high TR and like to see their teams growing over 200 TR. This rule is a killer for high TR teams.
If you like this kind of rules, you better play football manager at your PC or something, not Blood Bowl.
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Fouling rules suck.
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Fun Factor rules suck.
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thmbscrws
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 05, 2005 - 22:31 |
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| Quote: |
By the way Side Step + Guard is much better than Stand Firm + Guard. There are a lot guard side step players and everyone that was one in his team, knows their value. Everyone that faced them, know that they are a pain.
As for the name of Stand Firm, it means that you stay on your feet that means noone can puss you or bring you down by tackling you.
Jump up loses only the blitz action and keeps the important part. The important part of SF is to save you from turn overs caused by failed dodges.
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Sidestep + guard may be better than SF + guard (very debateable) but sidestep would be a double roll and sf would be normal roll for most players with str acess. Not sure what you mean about jump up losing it's blitz action and keeping "the important part" but if you mean jump up players can't stand up and block for free and you somehow think the block was the crapy part compared to standing up for free your insane. Jump up was split into two skills, jump up and spring back, spring back allows you to take the block and is probably the better of the two.
| Quote: |
"Throw Team-Mate now requires a 4+ roll to pick up the Right Stuff player."
"Instead of using passing rules, the throw is automatically made but only up to a number of squares equal to the thrower's ST away, counted from the thrower's square."
"Thrown players always scatter 3 times, and again if a player is in the landing square."
"Pass no longer applies to Throw Team-Mate."
Why killing the TTM ability of Orcs, Ogres, Goblins and Halflings?
If those rules reach the stunty league then one of the funniest parts of Stunty will die.
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TTM is roughly as reliable as it always was. Now it boils down to a simple 4+ to toss 5 squares and a 4+ for the average gobbo to land. Normaly the furthest a TTM pass would be done is a short pass which is six squares so their isn't a lot of distance lost here and if the big boy has strong arm it is the same distance. TTM is pretty much the same as it was the rules are just much more streamlined and easy to use.
| Quote: |
Fend
Kick-off Return
Juggernaut
Stand Firm
Those skills will not be very popular while a player can gain 6 skills max.
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Players can still get 7 skills just like they always could. Standfirm will still be taken frequently on guard players like dwarves. Juggernaut is pretty essential for big boys as it allows them to blitz without being as likely to knock themselves down on block dice a big help now that big boys don't have gen skills. Fend does seem pretty worthless to me but i could see a lot of teams having one kick off return player just as a lot of teams have one kick player. Would be an excellant skill for passers on bashy teams to help compensate for a deep kick that could really ruin your day if you've got elves running through your lines.
| Quote: |
"Once a Teams Value (TV) passes 1,500,000gps, then for every 200,000gp, the team must pay 10,000gps per match to cover the costs of running the team. If these cannot be paid using funds from the treasury, the debt is written off."
People like to play in high TR and like to see their teams growing over 200 TR. This rule is a killer for high TR teams.
If you like this kind of rules, you better play football manager at your PC or something, not Blood Bowl.
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I hate to go out on a limb here but i think losing some money every match is much much less damaging to high tr teams than aging is. So i don't see how this will ruin the game for people who like high tr teams. Getting rid of aging will be a huge boon to high tr teams and it makes getting to high tr and being sucessfull more a matter of skill than just who was luckiest on their aging rolls.
I think you need to read the latest version of the vault rules. From reading what you've written i get the impresion you are talking about older versions. |
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"If God really existed it would be necessary to abolish him." - Mikhail Bakunin |
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Captain1821
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 05, 2005 - 23:05 |
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| Quote: | | I think you need to read the latest version of the vault rules. From reading what you've written i get the impresion you are talking about older versions. |
I talk about the PDF that was linked at the first page. "vault_1.7_reference_sheet"
| Quote: | | Quote: |
"Throw Team-Mate now requires a 4+ roll to pick up the Right Stuff player."
"Instead of using passing rules, the throw is automatically made but only up to a number of squares equal to the thrower's ST away, counted from the thrower's square."
"Thrown players always scatter 3 times, and again if a player is in the landing square."
"Pass no longer applies to Throw Team-Mate."
Why killing the TTM ability of Orcs, Ogres, Goblins and Halflings?
If those rules reach the stunty league then one of the funniest parts of Stunty will die.
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TTM is roughly as reliable as it always was. Now it boils down to a simple 4+ to toss 5 squares and a 4+ for the average gobbo to land. Normaly the furthest a TTM pass would be done is a short pass which is six squares so their isn't a lot of distance lost here and if the big boy has strong arm it is the same distance. TTM is pretty much the same as it was the rules are just much more streamlined and easy to use. |
I can't agree with this. The differnces are so obvious.
| Quote: | | Quote: |
Fend
Kick-off Return
Juggernaut
Stand Firm
Those skills will not be very popular while a player can gain 6 skills max.
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Players can still get 7 skills just like they always could. Standfirm will still be taken frequently on guard players like dwarves. Juggernaut is pretty essential for big boys as it allows them to blitz without being as likely to knock themselves down on block dice a big help now that big boys don't have gen skills. Fend does seem pretty worthless to me but i could see a lot of teams having one kick off return player just as a lot of teams have one kick player. Would be an excellant skill for passers on bashy teams to help compensate for a deep kick that could really ruin your day if you've got elves running through your lines. |
Juggernaut
During a Blitz action, opponents may not use Fend or Stand Firm, and Both Down may be treated as Pushed instead.
I don't understand how a big guy will go down with another player while most players have bloke and big guys don't. This needs a powskull between 2 players without bloke, right?
| Quote: | | Quote: |
"Once a Teams Value (TV) passes 1,500,000gps, then for every 200,000gp, the team must pay 10,000gps per match to cover the costs of running the team. If these cannot be paid using funds from the treasury, the debt is written off."
People like to play in high TR and like to see their teams growing over 200 TR. This rule is a killer for high TR teams.
If you like this kind of rules, you better play football manager at your PC or something, not Blood Bowl.
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I hate to go out on a limb here but i think losing some money every match is much much less damaging to high tr teams than aging is. So i don't see how this will ruin the game for people who like high tr teams. Getting rid of aging will be a huge boon to high tr teams and it makes getting to high tr and being sucessfull more a matter of skill than just who was luckiest on their aging rolls. |
When your team will have -500.000 gp at the tresury, how are you going to replace a dead or niggled player? The team will be doomed sooner or later.
With the rules we have, high TR teams can replace the nigglers and the dead.
Removing ageing is cool, but if you do it like this is like offering me a nice sport car without an engine in the bonnet. |
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mUst
Joined: Jan 05, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 05, 2005 - 23:55 |
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why dont they just come out of the bush and say "elves cant be killed anymore", and the rest is just there to fill |
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thmbscrws
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 06, 2005 - 00:00 |
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Because it's not true. |
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"If God really existed it would be necessary to abolish him." - Mikhail Bakunin |
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Kryten
Joined: Sep 02, 2003
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| Quote: | <snip>
When your team will have -500.000 gp at the tresury, how are you going to replace a dead or niggled player? The team will be doomed sooner or later. With the rules we have, high TR teams can replace the nigglers and the dead.
<snip> |
Actually, in the description of spiralling expenses, it notes that if the expenses cannot be paid with existing funds from the treasury, then the debt is written off. It will be harder to save for new players for high TR teams, but not as impossible as you make it sound. The team will have to be cut down to lower TR, and then new players saved for. |
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Tinkywinky
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 06, 2005 - 02:59 |
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I don't understand this talk of no blood. Except for the dp change I don't see how these rules favour elves. I would hate the new injury rules (apoth) if I was an elf coach in a vault league |
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Colin
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 06, 2005 - 02:59 |
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I recommend you go to www.bloodbowl.com and download the full Vault 1.7 set of pdfs, then read them carefully. Have a copy of the latest LRB + Rules Review for comparitive purposes. The Vault is intended to become the new ruleset circa 2007
For a commentary about the new skills, I refer you to my article in the GLN #5 at http://fumbbl.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=12&page=3
Berserker is now Spring Back and resides in the Agility category, and Grapple is now Wrestle.
Then have a read on the forums there to get an insight of the thought processes behind some of the changes. You'll notice the odd thread belly-aching about 'change for change sake'; it is true that earlier forms of the Vault met with huge resistance, many tons of horseshit was shovelled back and forth, much flaming was done (some of it quite disgraceful), and in the end we got to the present Vault, which is probably nearly complete - any remaining revisions will be minor. I'm really not interested in those arguments starting up on FUMBBL too. Please desist.
The key will be in the playtesting - we can't say anything about these rules for definate until we test them out, and that's were Christer, SkiJunkie and DivX come in. DivX was always meant to be the league for experimental rules, and through no fault of its own went down something of an evolutionary dead end. The plan, so far as I understand it, will be to sweep it clean and start it afresh as a Vault division. Once that's up, we'll generate more playtesting data in one week than has been done in total for the Vault so far since its inception. I hope and expect that whether the coaches that participate are largely 'for' or 'against' the new ruleset, we push it as far as it can go to either break it, or satisfy ourselves that it is fine. This data will go a huge way towards shaping Bloodbowl for the future - the first time FUMBBL will have had such a direct impact on our favourite game. |
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