FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Jun 25, 2005

Posted: Dec 15, 2005 - 14:06

Lizards can't be easily bashed by non-bushy team. But it doesn't mean that lizards are bashy.

IMHO they may become bashy when most of sauruses have at least 2-3 skills. However at this development level they still don't look bashy when compared to real bashers.

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pac

Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Posted: Dec 15, 2005 - 15:15

If you find yourself getting bashed by Lizards: target the Skinks! Never waste a blitz on a Saurus if there's any other choice. Hit Skinks with Block, Tackle, Frenzy and MB players wherever possible. Make these blocks three dice when you can - it is never overkill! Foul Skinks as well: even if you only foul once a half, don't waste that foul on a Saurus. This tactic can actually be easier for non-bashers to employ since they have higher MA with which to chase down those Skinks.

Many Lizard teams won't actually have that many Skinks in reserve (they are expensive, and having too many of them will tend to suck vital MVPs away from Saurus). If you can take out the Skinks, you'll find that 6 ST 4 players and an ST 5 player seem much less impressive when those are the only 7 opposition players on the pitch!

No, this won't work every time: sometimes those Skinks get lucky and pass their AV rolls; sometimes the Saurus get lucky and do as much damage to your line players as you do to the Skinks. On average though, it is this counter-tactic that makes it difficult for Lizards to be competitive at the very top tier. To do that you really have to develop Saurus ball-carriers ... (and on that note, pac turns the floor over to Dreadclaw ...)

--

Edit: Noticing other posters comments about albator's specific team: albator, have you considered that it is not that ... hospitable is perhaps the word I'm looking for ... to run such a heavily trained-up team in your own tournament!? Take a look at brownrob in his Fumbbl World Cup (which includes one team of each race): he didn't reserve Dwarves for himself - he's running Nurglings! Very Happy

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Last edited by pac on %b %15, %2005 - %15:%Dec; edited 1 time in total

spacemanspiff

Joined: Apr 05, 2004

Posted: Dec 15, 2005 - 15:27

normaly they aint bashy. but your team in that cup ........ look at your cas difference 15 for to 3 against in the last 3 games

SolomonKane

Joined: Jul 21, 2005

Posted: Dec 15, 2005 - 16:17

Lizards are not bashy. Coaches see the high ST count of the Saurii and sure, it's nothing to sneeze at when you have 6 ST 4 players. But really, Lizards have such a tricky time handling the ball there's no reason agility teams can't go around them. You may need to sacrifice a few linemen to tie up the Saurii, but then, that's the entire purpose of their existence, right, to do the dirty work that needs doing? On top of that, 2db against with Block vs no block on the Saurii makes up for a lot of things.

I not so long ago had a Norse player take on my Saurii and he wasn't at all shy about hitting my Saurii with 2db against (before I had much Block on them). The sad thing is, the great majority of his blocks worked, to the tune of maybe 2 turnovers at most due to a failed block. I won the match, but I still had to run a proper cage to do it, I did not overwhelm the Norse with casualties.

albator2001

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 15, 2005 - 16:21

I've already played agile cup with ... snots !!!!

pac wrote:

Edit: Noticing other posters comments about albator's specific team: albator, have you considered that it is not that ... hospitable is perhaps the word I'm looking for ... to run such a heavily trained-up team in your own tournament!? Take a look at brownrob in his Fumbbl World Cup (which includes one team of each race): he didn't reserve Dwarves for himself - he's running Nurglings! Very Happy

pac

Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Posted: Dec 15, 2005 - 16:41

albator2001 wrote:

I've already played agile cup with ... snots !!!!

Good to hear. Very Happy

Even still, I wouldn't be surprised that you've had some complaints about running a team which has been skilled up so specifically to its task. How many Lizard teams would you usually see which have 6 Saurus with two skills each, none of which include Break Tackle (or Guard or MB for that matter)? That's an elf-killer team in a pretty good disguise: quite harsh given the theme of the tournament, imo.

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JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Dec 15, 2005 - 16:43

pac wrote:

That's an elf-killer team in a pretty good disguise: quite harsh given the theme of the tournament, imo.

Hell yeah.

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shadow46x2

Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 01:16

why don't we do the right thing here, and instead of putting up a loaded question to get the answers that you want, albator...why don't you put up a poll actually asking the *PROPER* question?

Are Lizardmen an agility-based team?.....

i have an idea, that the majority will agree that they're *NOWHERE* near an agile team...

let's use your team as a template for comparison shall we?....
you have 7 players with an AGI of an astoundingly nimble *1*...yes..that's a one....
additionally, you have 7 players with a 3 agi, and a lucky little foul-bait target with an agi 4....

that brings your average agi to a stellar, mind-bogglingly dexterous 2.13.....

that's lower than the average for an orc team.....and what are orcs?...say it with me....*BASHY*....

in fact, let's take this indepth analysis one step further!!!

the average 16-man lizard team will have, more than likely, one krox, 6 saurus, and 9 skinks....barring any agi increases, that's an average of a 2.125 AGI...

and what about a 16-man *all* skink team?...that leaves 12 skinks and 4 "other"...which all have agi1 so pick at your leisure....that's an average of 2.5 AGI....hell that's even *LOWER* than arguably the most bashiest team in the league, the chaos,(and i say arguably, because of their options with claw/rsc, as opposed to khemri's brute strength), who have an overall agi of 2.875 with a 1 troll team....

now *HOW* can you *EVEN* come across as saying lizards are eligible for some sort of "agility cup" when they're average stats are right on par with the bashiest teams in the league?....

it really sickens me that someone can design a league, with a good theme in mind, and completely desecrate it by putting in a team designed to destroy all of the teams involved in it....it's absolutely disgusting...

--j

Last edited by shadow46x2 on %b %20, %2005 - %01:%Dec; edited 1 time in total

thesquig

Joined: Apr 11, 2004

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 01:22

They're certainly not agile. And when we compare them to our middle of the road human teams, generally the lizzies bash and humans away run like girls.

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albator2001

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 01:46

I repeat another time: the question is :

Are lizardmen bashy or not ?

My cup will soon take a new name like "The non-bashy cup" ...

64% of coaches think that lizardmen aren't bashy.

So in my opinion, they can continue to play in "Agile Cup" (or " The non-bashy cup").

shadow46x2 wrote:

why don't we do the right thing here, and instead of putting up a loaded question to get the answers that you want, albator...why don't you put up a poll actually asking the *PROPER* question?

Are Lizardmen an agility-based team?.....

i have an idea, that the majority will agree that they're *NOWHERE* near an agile team...

let's use your team as a template for comparison shall we?....
you have 7 players with an AGI of an astoundingly nimble *1*...yes..that's a one....
additionally, you have 7 players with a 3 agi, and a lucky little foul-bait target with an agi 4....

that brings your average agi to a stellar, mind-bogglingly dexterous 2.13.....

that's lower than the average for an orc team.....and what are orcs?...say it with me....*BASHY*....

in fact, let's take this indepth analysis one step further!!!

the average 16-man lizard team will have, more than likely, one krox, 6 saurus, and 9 skinks....barring any agi increases, that's an average of a 2.125 AGI...

and what about a 16-man *all* skink team?...that leaves 12 skinks and 4 "other"...which all have agi1 so pick at your leisure....that's an average of 2.5 AGI....hell that's even *LOWER* than arguably the most bashiest team in the league, the chaos,(and i say arguably, because of their options with claw/rsc, as opposed to khemri's brute strength), who have an overall agi of 2.875 with a 1 troll team....

now *HOW* can you *EVEN* come across as saying lizards are eligible for some sort of "agility cup" when they're average stats are right on par with the bashiest teams in the league?....

it really sickens me that someone can design a league, with a good theme in mind, and completely desecrate it by putting in a team designed to destroy all of the teams involved in it....it's absolutely disgusting...

--j

pac

Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 01:54

albator2001 wrote:

I repeat another time: the question is :

Are lizardmen bashy or not ?

My cup will soon take a new name like "The non-bashy cup" ...

64% of coaches think that lizardmen aren't bashy.

So in my opinion, they can continue to play in "Agile Cup" (or " The non-bashy cup").

I think shadow's point was that you haven't yet changed the title of the cup: and hadn't done so when you entered the team in question in it. As the name stands, it's hard to disagree with shadow's ... enthusiastically made ... arguments.

Had you asked the question as it related to the actual, current title of the cup (not the name you might be thinking of planning to give to it at some point), you might have received a very different response from those polled. My vote would certainly have been reversed.

Edit: I notice the name of the tournament has now changed. But that doesn't affect any of the points made as they related to its previous title.

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albator2001

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 02:09

Since the beginning lizardmen were allowed to play in Agile Cup and coaches says nothing. 1-2 lizardmen teams play and were not sucessful.

I started to play with my lizardmen in the 7th Agile Cup ! And from the 8th, once my lizardmen started to be succesful, 2 coaches complain about my team ...

So i don't undestand all these reactions vs me.

An internal poll was made in Agile Cup group. 4 think lizardmen aren't bashy and only 2 think they are ... It's 66% in favor ...

pac wrote:

albator2001 wrote:

I repeat another time: the question is :

Are lizardmen bashy or not ?

My cup will soon take a new name like "The non-bashy cup" ...

64% of coaches think that lizardmen aren't bashy.

So in my opinion, they can continue to play in "Agile Cup" (or " The non-bashy cup").

I think shadow's point was that you haven't yet changed the title of the cup: and hadn't done so when you entered the team in question in it. As the name stands, it's hard to disagree with shadow's ... enthusiastically made ... arguments.

Had you asked the question as it related to the actual, current title of the cup (not the name you might be thinking of planning to give to it at some point), you might have received a very different response from those polled. My vote would certainly have been reversed.

Edit: I notice the name of the tournament has now changed. But that doesn't affect any of the points made as they related to its previous title.

Jackbedead

Joined: Mar 01, 2004

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 02:13

First skill for a sarurus is block, then if the player is smart mighty blow, otherwise they'll continue to get skills too slowly to matter. Guard Tackle and everything else is situational, block and MB are always necessary to make an agility 1 player any good.

Saurus get skills to slow to be bashy. A norse lineman could take down a Saurus after a couple games.

Saurus are not an agility team, their armor is way too high.

In reality, Lizardmen are the pinnacle of a hybrid team. They're bashy because the best way to score is to cause enough injuries with the Saurus to walk the ball across in the second half. While to even pick up the ball they need the most agile little guy there is in Blood Bowl, who also dies just as easy. In essense they're Bashy and they're not. But either way, they suck, and they take some good coaching to get anywhere, so I think they should be allowed in any cup. Just because they're so damn hard to play, and I really doubt they'll win anything.

pac

Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 02:34

albator2001 wrote:

Since the beginning lizardmen were allowed to play in Agile Cup and coaches says nothing. 1-2 lizardmen teams play and were not sucessful.

I started to play with my lizardmen in the 7th Agile Cup ! And from the 8th, once my lizardmen started to be succesful, 2 coaches complain about my team ...

So i don't undestand all these reactions vs me.

All I can say is that in the - highly unlikely - event that I joined a competition called the 'Agile Cup' I would be pretty annoyed to come across a monster team like yours: which is clearly highly-specialised for elf-killing, and not for ball-play (or for 'not being bashy' for that matter).

Let's say an Orc team applied to join this cup, with a roster of: 4 Black Orcs with Block and Tackle; 2 Blitzers with Tackle; and 4 Goblins. Would you, as tournament organiser, accept that team's application?

Of course not. Even if the list were permitted in the cup, that coach would clearly be playing against the spirit of the tourney: he would just be looking for an easy opportunity to maim elves. And yet you have used one of the permitted team lists to build an almost identical team to the one above - except that it is faster and thus even better at hunting down elves.

Albator, if your intention is to set out to disprove the opinion that EvolvetoAnarchism and others have of you, then this may not be the best way to go about it. Wink

On the other hand, if you genuinely can't understand the complaints of the participants, perhaps you're not actually cut out for running tournaments: not all of us are ...

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shadow46x2

Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Posted: Dec 20, 2005 - 03:17

let's take a survey!!!

name off the teams that come to mind when you think "agile"...

i'll go first!!

amazons...
skaven...
elves(all kinds)....
stunties!....

yup....think that bout covers it...

again....albator....quit asking questions catered to receive the questions you want.....

lizards are *NOT* an agile team...period...no questions asked......

in fact...let's do another comparison....let's look at the past winners of the ill-fated "Agile Cup"....

tell me what's wrong with this picture...

Agile Cup I - High Elf
Agile Cup II - Skaven
Agile Cup III - High Elf
Agile Cup IV - Amazon
Agile Cup V - High Elf
Agile Cup VI - Wood Elf
Agile Cup VII - Skaven
Agile Cup VIII - .....Lizardmen...

again....it's like trying to play "where's waldo" in a barren snowfield....

the answer is obvious.....

let's take a league with a LOT of ag4, low av, dodge innate skills, or incredibly fast teams......and put a team with 7 st4+/ag1 players in it....wow! what a concept!!!

get over yourself....

--j

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