Faulcon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
 Posted:
Mar 13, 2005 - 10:17 |
 
|
Sparticus: They get more fresh meat to mutilate in season 9. |
|
|
theopacman
Joined: Jan 26, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 13, 2005 - 12:19 |
|
I am in full support of the Ckunkathon and mainly because the coaches of bash teams don't like it.
Example The frollikars last season (an av7 Norse team) had to play 2 dwarf, 2 Khemri an Orc and Necro team all bash teams and then had Forfieted game against woodies . By the end of the season they are beaten up with no real hope of winning the last couple of games . Previously they get maybe 1 game in the picnic and then back to being bashed again with NO chance of rebuilding without dropping to QPool.
No of Course Bash teams are going to want this as every season by weight of attrition the Bash teams get stronger and the gulf widens.
We need a better 'mix' of teams in the SWL and so far this is the only way i have seen thayt could possibly achieve this. |
|
|
ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 13, 2005 - 13:01 |
|
exactly theo, but we should discourage open picking on new players with killer teams... that achieves nothing.
The only exception though is that the league fluff teams (donuts, zombies, all the gobbo teams) will take on anyone, particularly tougher teams in need of a recovery match. |
|
|
Sparticus
Joined: Jan 31, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 13, 2005 - 13:52 |
|
WINNING a league is about team management, and a constant winning record... and a bashy team getting mabey 8-10 games in a season and a elf team getting close to double that thus earning more Cash, more spp's, more skills. So when every elf team within the league has Block dodge, and god knows what else, your telling me they will be able to contend with the bashier teams
was there ever any consideration that bashier team NEED to be bashy to win games, that mabey the opponet haveing less than 11 helps there low MA players score Td's with out being molested by the other team, and perhaps its harder to get Spp's on a rotter, Black Orc, Longbeard, than it is to get them on a Elf lino, YES they have less armour, but they have more agiltiy, more movement and thus lies there advantage, not to mention any other teams Rerolls are cheaper than any team that has a STR 4 player on its roster
i say remove the premier league from the Chunkathon (so the bottom 4 teams go back to the confrences and can take part in it, but the winners from each confrence get promoted but cannot take part in it) As winning the PREMIERSHIP , should be about who playes the best CONSISTANTLY... not a team that can get a heap of cherry games at the start of the season buy all there that died last confrence, and have enough cash carry them thou the premier.... and as you have said your self clay and ppl that support the chunkathon its about less bashier teams rebuilding, but if ANY team is ganan with the MAIN prize for the swl then it should be well earned, not because you for 10 games in your offseason...
My 2 cents |
|
|
whitey
Joined: Sep 19, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 13, 2005 - 20:24 |
|
Spart, my team Form Guide was close to the smallest team in the confs last season. I got 4 out of 7 matches, with 3 forfeits against a weakened dark elf squad, an undeveloped human team and nice amazon team. This doesn't make it possible to ever catch the other conf teams, or even the TR180 teams out of qpool. I don't want to send a new team up from the pool, just get a few games in to catch up. So far, I've fired 2 nigglers and lost 2 guys in the four games I've gotten. I'm still nowhere near TR 180, I don't even have 11 on the roster. For me this offseaon is not about becoming better than the top teams, its about not being the bottom team anymore. I think I agree with theo, that this is meant to make up for the imbalance between bashy and agility teams in the league. No-one is denying you the chance to play a tough game Spart, but most teams can't afford to play to play khemri 5 times in 15 games, yet only 2 elf and 1 norse team without strenght 4+ rostered players.
edit: These 15 games were my run in the fixed league since the start of the last picnic till the start of the chunkathon. And I missed the dwarves in my count of teams without s4 player, I got to play them once as well. |
|
|
andycapp
Joined: May 26, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 14, 2005 - 04:41 |
|
G'day all,
I can see this thing from many perspectives, and just have a few comments.
The Chunkathon is good for the following reasons (plus more I'm sure) :
- teams can recover from a season of pain and sufferring (usually recognised by a severe dip in TR/TS)
- teams lower on TR/TS can build to be closer to the leaders
- coaches can totally pick who/what they want to play against.
The Chunkathon isn't as good for the following reason (plus more I'm sure) :
- "bashy" teams - even if they are lowly - are often shunned.
- any team that is already high in TR/TS is also often shunned
- Therefore you can basically forget it if your team is both high tr/ts AND a "bashy" team.
- Looking for a game for half an hour when there are 15 other coaches online who don't want to play YOUR team(s). Try THAT for a month ...
A quick look at the "leader board" of the Chunkathon shows 1 "bashy" team in the top 20. Basy teams have to beg, borrow and steal to get a game. More often than not, we are turned down even though no other games are being played.
This is what Spart is saying - he's got a developed team (worked long and hard to get it that way too, I might add), considered quite bashy, and he's having to go without a game in the SWL while all these elven teams score SPP after SPP in game after game.
I rather think that taking out the next season's Premier League teams may have been a good idea - keep them all on the level playing field before they start their epic launch at the title in Season 9.
But then what teams should have been allowed to play in the Chunkathon? No team in a fixed division (Prem, Conf, etc) ? It would just be a QPool on steroids, really - a month without any of the SWL teams actually playing ...
The admins set up the Chunkathon to be an "off-season" of sorts, where teams can choose who they want to play, rather than forever being told who they must play. They can't really tell what might happen unless they set it up and we all join in (or attempt to, and get denied) 
Coaches who are missing out really have to put up with it until Season 9 starts. Comments are welcome of course - it gets each coach's view on the subject (how we are faring with getting games, or how we are finding the format, etc). No format is really going to suit every coach and every team, but putting in an off-season was something the admins thought to try out this time around.
With my two teams both being bashy - before the Chunkathon I knew one of them had to be my entry into Season 9, so I took in my best 2 teams - I have noticed a big drought of games. Despite there being more than a dozen coaches online at the time, I find myself not getting a game. I still try to make the most of it by joining in the chats, but it's not the same really.
I'm going to have to read over the "rules" for the start of Season 9 again (like the two tiers in Conf, etc), and try to beg for more games before then !!!
One thing the coaches of the "bashy" teams can laugh about, though, is when these elves are playing each other at high TR/TS and come out of it with numerous SIs and RIPs on their teams! It's happened quite a lot. Keep it up guys and gals! 
Oh, and why do I play bashy teams? It's what my regular game style is. I had an Orc team in the local board game league when I was a teenager (many seasons with that team I might add), so that was my first team when joining fumbbl. I "diversed" to dwarves, but since then I've tried numerous different races in the other tournaments I'm a part of. I also make a new team each QPool season, and next season will be no different. If I could have joined my High Elves for the Chunkathon, I probably would have - I knew I would get a game with a newbie elf team!
They're my points of view. The Chunkathon was a good change of scene, and I hope we can take the good points into the off season between Seasons 9 and 10 - whatever that may be.
cheers, andycapp
PS. Thanks to those teams/coaches I have managed to play so far this Chunkathon. I hope there are more games soon.
PPS. Are all of the "fluff" teams open to ANY team not getting a game ???? |
|
|
Sparticus
Joined: Jan 31, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 14, 2005 - 08:04 |
|
I do agree that, lower elf,norse,zons,skaven, any team that have a lower av player on there team will need recovery after each season... hell even the bashy teams need it they lose 1 or 2 positional players and they lose out big time BUT in saying this, its alot harder for the bashy teams (Ie Saurus,BlackOrc,Dwarf Runner)to get the Spp's usally at the same rate say a Elf catcher, or Gutter runner will acuire them, so considering that at this development rate the elf teams will have a advantage on skills, Money,RR's basicly anything that has to do with managing a team..
YES bashy teams live longer its a statistical fact, and it takes them longer for them to get to the higher Tr\TS,to get to a stage where they have a solid team. Its the risk you take when u enter a lower AV team into the league, but you have either have basic stats or starting skills, that the bash teams just dount have or little chance of getting, hell my first team in the league was skaven, and yer i got SMASHED pillar to post, and i have no doubt it was due to a few bad coaching decsions, and bad play ideas, when they go wrong you get drilled for it. You cannot blame the orc team your playing that they then proceed to grind the ball from a few squares from there touchdown line to score on turn 8 or 7, they cannot play the ball as good as what your team can, thus making your players try and stand up to a stonger team and thus suffering more cas's ITS blood bowl.
i do not see the point of punishing 1\2 the league because they chose to play a more tactical game then Run and Gun..... |
|
|
Uncle_Smed
Joined: May 22, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 14, 2005 - 08:58 |
|
Hit the nail on the head there Sparticus..
I'm choosing to play a tactical game.. it's called "Give my team a chance at winning"
Why am I going to play a game against a team which is going to beat me up because "the bashy teams NEED to be bashy to win"??
Saurus, Black Orcs, Longbeards... hell, most high AV and low end AG players do have a harder time of scoring SPPs because they don't move as fast.
You can still score with them. You can even throw a pass with them.
You know what makes me not want to play? The mentality that states "In order to advance my player/win with this team, I must block until something breaks".
My orcs team, not highly recognised because I do silly things with them like throw games to try to foul an irritating player and suchlike, they're considered bashy.. but not a single BoB on the team has less than 2 TDs. One of them threw a completion after dodging out of a zone to pick up his 2nd skill.
There are OTHER options. It's not easy, neither is playing as a "non-bashy" team against a bashy one.. but when coaches start trying these other options, then you might have the right to ask me to play evenly.
Sparti, your team is reasonable about it.. most of the longbeards have something.. andycapp.. sorry, but your Dorfs are a prime example of the mentality. You have an MA 8 runner, enough guard to push down the pitch in 2 turns and open a hole in the 3rd and score a lot more TDs than you have over their career.
Notice not a single TD or completion to a longbeard.. because a lot of bashy coaches (And while I'm picking on Dorfs, it's because they are without doubt the single most boring race to play against in the Bowlverse) when given a player with AG 2 and 5 SPPs will sit there all game trying to get a casualty rather than get him the ball, and throw a 4+ pass with reroll to a reasonable catcher. (You might not have one to begin with, but eventually you develop a ball handler).
In a device such as Chunkathon (much like the vaunted and touted Qpool) which is about "team building" who in their right mind is going to play against a team which starts with the two skills most involved in hitting things? (Blockle city!)
You want to build your team? Play against someone who you'll have as much trouble hurting as they will you.
Friendly Chunkathon? We're keeping a kill count. And I think it's topped ANY season of the SWL and we're not even halfway through.
Simplest lesson is this... if you enjoy playing games in the off season.. don't take Dwarves.
Seems to me conferences are run pretty cutthroat with teams like the Stonesmashers and others coming out on top through sheer brutality and Qpool and anything like it are played like Ranked where it's frowned upon to foul and so called "cherrypicking" is rampant.
That's one other thing, you call it cherrypicking, I call it not trying to digest rocks. Or bludgeon a safe door open by putting a pot on my head and running at it..
And now for another post... |
|
|
whitey
Joined: Sep 19, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 14, 2005 - 09:05 |
|
Spart, you say half the league is being punished. I'm not sure of the league as a whole, but I sure haven't been getting a 50/50 mix here. I think you'll find most of the teams are bashy, and this punishing of most of the league is to help the few dodgey teams avoid retirement, and maybe draw a few more in? In the teams scored 1-24 on the main page I count about 8 dodgey teams, out of 38. Thats the fixed league teams left from last season, around 20%. If you include Norse and Lizardmen you get up to 14, still less than 40%. |
|
|
Uncle_Smed
Joined: May 22, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 14, 2005 - 09:16 |
|
| chunky04 wrote: | OK folks, it's that time again: teams available for application for qpool time!
The current racial makeup of the divisions is:
Orc 6
Dwarf 5
Chaos 4
Norse 5
Khemri 4
Human 2
CD 2
Lizards 2
Woodies 2
Undead 2
Rotters 1
Zons 1
High Elf 1
Necro 1
Skaven 1
Pro Elf 1
Dark Elf 0
Ogres 0
Vampires 0
Halflings 0
Gobbos 0
|
I think this sums up beautifully why I won't play Dwarves or Orcs in Chunkathon.
So to all the whining Dorf and Borc coaches, shove that where the sun doesn't shine.
You already dominate the conferences, now you want Chunkathon too.. what's next, Qpool?
Retire your stupidly old teams and get a fresh start..
"Oh, but I put in lots of work on that team to get them there"
Cry me a river, what about Platypus who puts in just as much effort and as many games and gets brutalised in one or two games to the point the team needs to be retired because it's just not functional.
Seems a lot of other coaches must have suffered the same way across the 8 seasons of SWL because there's not a lot of non-bashy teams there are there?
Does anyone read these lists? Does anyone care?
Does anyone think "Yeah, there are too many Dwarves/Orcs/Khemri.. I'll give mine a rest and put in something different"?
No. Because you're mindless twits who can't play any other style of bloodbowl.
Well I'll play you when I have to, and not before then.
And meantime you just sit down and shut the hell up.
"But you chose to play as elves.. "
You chose to play as Dorfs/Orcs/Bashy teams. I live with the pasting I cop when I play you, you live with me not playing you unless I have to.
Frankly it disgusts me that coaches are complaining people won't play them when nearly HALF (19 out of 40 positions across the 4 conferences and premier.. yep, nearly half there) of the upper echelons of the SWL are played by four of the most undeniably bashy teams (Dorfs, Orcs, Chaos and Khemri.. c'mon.. tell me they're not bashy.. I dare you)
Now I don't expect there to be gobbos or flings in the league.. don't even really expect vampires or ogres to make an appearance.. but 0 dark elf teams.. 1 skaven team.. 1 High elf team... 1 Necro team??
Plenty wrong with this picture. And for the moron who's going to open his mouth and say "I don't see anything wrong with it", you can just take yourself outside right now, put the gun to your head and pull the trigger until you manage to kill yourself because your genes are wasted and not wanted in the greater pool of society.
Stop, look at the list, think about it. |
|
|
theopacman
Joined: Jan 26, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 14, 2005 - 10:24 |
|
Probably a bit to harshly put Smed but yes thats the draw back of playing a team that wins by beating up the other team. The other teams don't want to be beaten up game after game after game and that is where the Conferences have gotten too.
However Spart also has a point these guys are sitting out of SWL for a month and there is the possability that the Chunkathon can be abused by a team playing 20+ games in a month and coming into the premier 40 or more TR/ST begger than it was before?
Perhaps to eliminate this I suggest we have a limit
all the following seasons Premier teams can only play 5 games in the chunkathon and conference teams can play 10 games. That would mean if one of your teams plays more than 10 game in the Chunkathon then they are headed for the qpool next season. Coaches would newed to keep both there teams 10 games or under if they are not sure which will be their Conf entry
Just a thought to help make the Chunkathon fair but still do the task it was designed for |
|
|
whitey
Joined: Sep 19, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 14, 2005 - 10:28 |
|
That'd make it worse theo, if I only had 5/10 games I'd try to make sure they were against weaker dodgey teams so i could cause cas, receive few and still look at a win. No-one would ever use one of their games to play a 230+ orc/khemri/dwarf team. |
|
|
ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 14, 2005 - 10:48 |
|
Chunkathon
Guys, I am happy to take peoples points of view, but can we please calm down the tone... lets not get carried away here.
The racial mix list though does present a picture that does not look good... we admins have been concerned for the best part of 4-5 seasons about trying to get an EVEN mix of agility teams and bashy teams in the SWL...
We considered splitting the SWL into "divisions" based on skill sets... but thought that sucked big time 
We have enforced a racial restriction in the loosest of possible fashion without forcing people to play races they dont want to play... that has had limited success 
We considered (briefly) that the Champion Team in the SWL is retired... forcing a new champ each season. This was quickly thrown out and the fact is that we have had a different champ each season. 
So what to do about all the low AV teams now getting butchered by CAS merchant teams? Well we thought that in real life, teams train, have light matches and some serious trial games to prepare for the season ahead... so we first came up with the concept of the Chunkathon.
We new that the high TR Premier / Conf teams, particularly the bashy ones would struggle to get games, but thought the concept had merit.
It would also hopefully reduce the "burnout" of coaches (including our prior Commish) and hence drop outs.
It would allow SWL addicts to play to their hearts content and allow those who want to goto the beach instead do the same.
Now of course, as someone suggested above, we wont know the impact until the end of the Chunkathon, and that will determine format changes if needed next season. It is a bit of a suck it and see philosophy, and I cant say that the Chunkathon has been perfect, but I think it hasnt been a dismal failure either.
So, I would ask that we all show a bit of restraint, and that we use a more civil tone on these boards and in the IRC and allow ALL SWL'ers their right to a view... but to be honest, the Chunkathon will be in place until we draw it to a close and then we shall see if it was a success or failure.
Clay |
|
|
ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 14, 2005 - 10:51 |
|
PS - the Chunkathon is going to end around 1 APRIL.
And I think the "limit" on games would be a good idea we take into next season's "off season"...
Will think about that... |
|
|
Rennigeb
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 14, 2005 - 10:52 |
|
One method for returning to the balanced competition is this:
Prior to the start to a season hold an elimination rounds for each race. When necessary the highest ratings get byes. Failing teams enter Qpool. As the maximum teams a player can hold is two, it does produce the chance that both teams succeed in qualifying. In this case the player must choose. For the team not chosen, the team placed second progresses.
Each race now has a team to be played in the season. Split the teams into2 or three groups (3 in my opinion is better, shorter seasons). At the end of the season top in each group, and highest 2nd place point scorer goes into the semis. Highest point scorer vs wild card (2nd place team) and other two top teams play together, both winners play grand final. These 4 teams also get free passage into next season.
Racial elimination again with one exception, if two teams of the same race received free passage (ie, played in the semis) then no racial matches for that race. Thus a maximum ever of 2 of one race in the groups.
This concept encourages people who wish to get into the groups to have teams with fewer elimination opponents. |
|
|
|
|
| |
DIBBL Awards
Search
