CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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 Posted:
May 19, 2005 - 13:06 |
 
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Hmm... seems like I am in a very difficult position after the previous posts - and somehow I feel the need to defend at least myself, cuz I smell the stench of generalisation.
First of all:
Yes it´s true, you get a nice rating by cherrypicking, though there is a limit.
Yes it´s true, if you really care about your coachrating that much, you have to cherrypick.
But it´s also true, that you are forced to search for easy matches to maintain a high ranking.
Just as an example: If I play an average not too bad coach (CR 155) I am expected to have a 0.500-rate with my TS150 team against TS 242. That´s what the system is expecting from me. If CR-diff and TS-diff would be wighted in a different way, there would be an incentive to play tougher matchups. There isn´t, so I play even matchups against any coach who has a fitting team (and I have coaches dodging me for my CR).
I´m a very competitive person and I like the coachrating. I also liked the teamranking, which sadly was abandoned. I just like the fighting for the top and it an additional motivation to never give up in the UI. I always played games, where the teams were about equal. I sometimes picked some harder matches and accepted softer, if I was challenged. I don´t think that playing to win ruins the FUMBBL-spirit. The atmosphere was more kinda poinoned by those "who play only for the fun."
First of all, those "fun-coaches" labled all playing for the win as sick and whining a-holes, only cherrypicking and bitching. Whenever I proposed some tweaking of the ranking/TS-system I could be sure there was some freak telling me that noone should care about it anyway. When I argue in any fouling/stalling/OTS/god know what-thread, "fun-coaches" come to pick on me for playing to win. THAT is something killing the fun. If they don´t care - nice. I don´t force them to care.
Those "fun-coaches" were the first IMO, to start to kill the fun for me, when the started to play for teamdestruction instead of winning. I understand that bloody matches can be fun and I enjoy a pitch-war every now and then with my orcs, but it forced another group, who focus on teambuilding to go into extrem (whining about fouling/DP, starting elfbowl etc.).
Well... enough about this rant - I know, that I´m a little off topic. I just want to say, that I for myself enjoy a competitive game, discussion about tactical options and so on. Putting me into a "seriouly unfun" group i a little bit offending, as I know many nice and great coaches with a high CR.
And while we are accusing each other about unfun-stuff and cherrypicking - I can recall britnoth the reckless, defender of the last fun, dodging my orcs in faction with his equal TS zons for my 3 tackles and 1 MB.... |
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Smess
Joined: Feb 13, 2004
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| Posted:
May 19, 2005 - 13:17 |
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WTF
Britnoth and Farinroderel, those are some ridiculous overgeneralisations you're making there.
All high ranked coaches are whiners ?
High CR causes negative psychological effects ?
It's no fun playing against a high ranked coach ?
Being a high ranked coach for quite a while now,
let me tell you about how I look at the game now, after more than 700 fumbbl games.
-First: No matter how safe you play, you'll always need some luck. In some games you'll get diceraped and you'll lose, that's a fact.
Just keep in mind that your dice always could be worse even (usually you did have a game where it was worse).
Whining ain't gonna improve your dice, frankly it'll only will make you play worse. The only thing to do about bad dice is trying to keep your concentration, play well, and hope for a change. If not, sit the game out,
and go look for another one, which will likely be better.
-> Hence, I never complain about my dice much, cos it just is no use. When you get a game like that, you have to look at the funny side of it, and laugh at the dice. That way you'll have some fun while losing at least.
-Second: Everyone has different opinions about how the game should be played, and that's fine. For that, there is no reason to get mad when someone holds a total different playing style than you. No reason to avoid any coach or any team, as long it's a fair game (around same ST rating) and you feel like it at the moment. Also: ALL tactics are valid. While you might not see a point in it, or thinkits no fun, someone else can disagree.
->Hence: No reason to get mad whatever the opponent does. Hiring stars or wizards after agreement, 8 turn fouls, stalling all half long, fouling every turn, oneturning all the time, whatever, i've seen it before. Do what you must do, I won't complain. No reason to judge anyone, i'll just concentrate on trying to win.
-Third: To me, you can only call yourself a good coach, if you are familiar with every playing style, and if you are ready to take on any one aspect (like only elfbowl, or only bashing) just seems no fun to me. I always try to play against a sample of coaches and teams that resembles the community. After an easy opponent, i go looking for a good coach, after a ballplaying team, i'll go looking for a bashing team. You have to play challenging games if you want to improve, and such victories are the sweetest.
The only things I don't like are slow players and cherrypickers (I've even learned to ignore whiners).
Anyway, I've played against lot's of coaches over 170, and while there are some coaches as you both described, I think they are a minority. If you didn't enjoy the game, just don't play them anymore if you realy want.
Actually I've played some of my most fun and tense games agains other high ranked coaches that hold somewhat the same view on the game as me. Some good coaches gave me a beating and I learned much from those games.
To avoid any high coach because you had some bad experiences with them is just silly. But then again, if you don't play them, you'll never find out that you are wrong. |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Jan 26, 2005
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| Posted:
May 19, 2005 - 13:53 |
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| Smess wrote: | WTF
Britnoth and Farinroderel, those are some ridiculous overgeneralisations you're making there.
All high ranked coaches are whiners ?
High CR causes negative psychological effects ?
It's no fun playing against a high ranked coach ? |
The only "ridiculous overgeneralisations" here come with your post actually.
I suggest that you read what I've really said next time instead:
| Quote: | | Unfortunately, the greatest whiners are often those coaches with godlike winning records and outstanding coach rankings. |
I don't know since when "often" means the same as "all".
| Quote: | | An excellent coach ranking seems to cause a highly negative psychological impact on most players. |
I didn't say it was a confirmed fact, I said it seemed so. |
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Tommi
Joined: May 17, 2004
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| Posted:
May 19, 2005 - 13:57 |
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| Quote: |
Putting me into a "seriouly unfun" group i a little bit offending, as I know many nice and great coaches with a high CR.
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Well, you sure are most unfun, as you are hard to beat  - I havent met a person yet who does'nt love winning, and does'nt hate losing. When you cant win, you play for 'fun'.
And you did have the moskau insurance in the game, which is cool that you maintained high ranking, while playing gobbos too.
So all credit to you, you are on the top, and it doesnt really matter what the random folks say - learn to smile to the whiners, it is the common hobby of human species  Dont let them spoil the fun for you. |
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Tommi
Joined: May 17, 2004
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| Posted:
May 19, 2005 - 14:15 |
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| Quote: |
The only things I don't like are slow players and cherrypickers (I've even learned to ignore whiners).
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What is cherry picking? I think it's so lame to talk about team TS only. The whole concept 'cherry picking' should be abandoned. Only thing I can consider cherry picking is getting your rating up by playing against newbies who dont know the rules or dont know how to use the UI. (in first 10-20 games in ranked you shouldnt be able to lose CR). And no talk about playing in U first, as R is easiest way to get games.
When we arent talking about newbies, there are just good coaches and bad coaches, and a bad coach pits his amazons against dwarfs, it does not really matter what the TS is then? Pretty xtreme example, but I can usually tell from a glance to the team roster (ignoring TS), the level of the opponent.
The most common example being xtra players on the roster bought just as there happened to be some xtra cash.
So in my opinion, you are hating something that does not exist. Love, peace and BB! No place for hate. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
May 19, 2005 - 14:21 |
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| Farinroderel wrote: | I suggest that you read what I've really said next time instead:
| Quote: | | Unfortunately, the greatest whiners are often those coaches with godlike winning records and outstanding coach rankings. |
I don't know since when "often" means the same as "all".
| Quote: | | An excellent coach ranking seems to cause a highly negative psychological impact on most players. |
I didn't say it was a confirmed fact, I said it seemed so. |
That´s called rethorical backup.
'Often' in this context gains a meaning of 'Always, barring a few exception'. It´s like politicians talk, when they drive the opinion into a certain direction, but avoid being nailed by examples.
'Seems to' is even worse, as it´s 'every coach I have met', which is like 'every coach' with the possible retreat 'I haven´t met your example before'. |
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Mr__Wizard
Joined: Oct 22, 2003
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| Posted:
May 19, 2005 - 14:37 |
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*sigh*
Will you all stop sniping at each other please!
I don't think Pauls thread was intended to end up in more arguments
sheesh...
Mr__Wiz |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Jan 26, 2005
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| Posted:
May 19, 2005 - 15:02 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | Farinroderel wrote: | I suggest that you read what I've really said next time instead:
| Quote: | | Unfortunately, the greatest whiners are often those coaches with godlike winning records and outstanding coach rankings. |
I don't know since when "often" means the same as "all".
| Quote: | | An excellent coach ranking seems to cause a highly negative psychological impact on most players. |
I didn't say it was a confirmed fact, I said it seemed so. |
That´s called rethorical backup.
'Often' in this context gains a meaning of 'Always, barring a few exception'. It´s like politicians talk, when they drive the opinion into a certain direction, but avoid being nailed by examples.
'Seems to' is even worse, as it´s 'every coach I have met', which is like 'every coach' with the possible retreat 'I haven´t met your example before'. |
Dude, I claimed that the greatest whiners often have a high CR.
I didn't say all coaches with high CR are whiners.
Or, as a metaphor:
Let's say, I claim that most dwarves have str-access.
Now you would tell me that I've basically meant all players with str-access are dwarves.
Got my point now? |
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Laviak
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
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| Posted:
May 19, 2005 - 15:07 |
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this thread could really do with a poll.....
When did you stop having fun?
- 10 Minutes Ago (I get mood swings anyway)
- Yesterday (I'm sure it will be fun again tomorrow)
- Last Week (But it's probably only temporary)
- A Month Ago (I'm hoping it will suddenly get better)
- A Year Ago (but I'm still here having even less fun than ever before)
- When 'FoulHimTillHeDies' forced my favourite team into retirement (I vow to never play another team with a DP on it)
- When some skaven team beat me 7-0 with their 4 1-turner gutter runners (I now foul any one turners every turn with my DP .. and refuse to play them if I don't have a DP)
- When I rolled a double one for the first time (the game was never the same after that)
- When I challenged 3 amazon teams with my dwarves, and they all refused to play me (I hate cherrypickers!)
- When people started whining about whiners (oh the irony of it all)
- I never had fun anyway, so I couldn't 'stop' having fun .. the only reason I play blood bowl is ... (insert reason here)
- WTF are you talking about? I'm STILL having fun (despite all you people trying to bring me down)
- When some idiot created this stupid poll (would that have been me?)
hmm, I think you can only have ten options in a poll though. |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 19, 2005 - 15:12 |
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Paul will cry when he reads the last two pages. |
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Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. |
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Vanguard
Joined: Nov 01, 2003
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| Posted:
May 19, 2005 - 15:18 |
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as we played a team with a dirty player and he got gtr in 1 turn and of the end of the first half your team is dead -.-
i am one of the players who dont care about winning ... as long my team surrvies
But i have no prob with losing players -.- but not to fouling and crowdpushs, mainly bcs noone gets something from it |
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Macavity
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
May 19, 2005 - 15:23 |
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I don't know, Irony and whatnot aside... Paul is right..... (note my sig). I do still have fun, but not every game. Sometimes a new coach t oplay is pure joy, sometimes it's just stress (I have a thing about being sworn at). Tourney's are sometimes more fun, I get that, because you don't have the sensitivity about losing players, but.... I guess a lot of it is venting, and this is not a good place to do it. In RL, you might go to a friend after a game with someone who was rude or used 'cheap' tactics (by whatever definition) and say "this guy was a JERK!". Good. Go ahead. Let it out. But when that turns into, "Don't we all think that people who do this are the scum of the earth?" and is announced to the whole community.... well..... it's not venting anymore. If think of myself as someone who fouls, and I use it to win me games, and I see a thread that says, "Foulers suck and so do their mothers!" I'm going to have to be very well rested and in a good mood to say, "You know, maybe this guy just played a fouler who was mean and rude about it", instead of defending it as a personal attack.
In conclusion, the main issue with complaint threads in the forum is, I believe, that the complaint is generated due to a specific circumstance but is presented as a general thought. Anyone who has ever done any sort of relationship councelling will tell you that words spoken (or written) are not the cause of issues. It is the interpretation that causes issues, hence the recommendation of using 'I statements'. Rather then saying, 'you're a whiney idiot, fouling's part of the game!" you could say, "I feel like you are attacking me, because I foul, and I've never played you. It hurts to think you'd judge me without playing me." Seriously, I don't want to be a one-man PaulHicks promoter, but he has more DP on his teams than a random half-dozen other teams, but he is TONNES of fun to play, very polite, and will warn you pre-game that he does play a violent game. I don't think his complaint is about people complaining or about being personally offended by the nature of the complaints, but the general atmosphere. Him and I cannot be the only once who try and read through a forum topic and end up all tense at the end, due to the flaming and general dis-respectful and poisonous atmosphere, can we?
All we are sa-a-a-a-ying, is give peace a chance!!! (and play my no-tree flings!) |
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When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis
Last edited by Macavity on %b %19, %2005 - %15:%May; edited 2 times in total |
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Jinxed
Joined: Jul 04, 2004
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| Posted:
May 19, 2005 - 15:24 |
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Fun is what you make of it.
I am happy to say I have only one (1!) black number one instead of a blacklist and have a fair few coaches on my white list. (far from exhaustive; if I do not add fun coaches immediately I tend to forget 'em, so do not feel offended if you played me and are not on there .)
The one thing people have to bear in mind is that it generally is more fun when you are winning. There's a catch though. While I may think you win when you score more td's, some think you win by killing more opposing players.
Which is better? Which is intended? Why even talk about it?
Fun is what you make of it. |
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Nuffle sucks |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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| Posted:
May 19, 2005 - 15:34 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | Just don't leave Paul. Don't leave me alone with Macavity roaming in the Forums... I'm scared!  |
*eats goldfish cracker for Macavity mention*
I'm still having fun.
We all get stressed over a game now and then, but later (after sleep), we get off the ground and back in the saddle. some people just fall less gracefully than others.
I say 9 out of 10 games on fumbbl are truly fun. |
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Candlejack
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 19, 2005 - 15:36 |
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*sigh*.. i truly understand pauls point.. and it is sad that this thread is abused by people that are unpleased by the system to put up ridiculous assumptions about how the system encourages lameness.. the only thing that is to blame is the lack of backbone in the community which was unanvoidable as it started to grow as i told many times before.. if you encounter those people.. get over it.. (as paul said)... and stop blaming the system for your own lack of guts..
[plonk] |
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