Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
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 Posted:
Feb 04, 2009 - 10:33 |
 
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Whenever someone rolled 5+5 and asked the question on the forums, I usually voted for taking the doubles instead. Does your lineman really need that extra movement or wouldn't guard be the better choice?
Strange enough, that appeared to be the minority decision, though - I remember that "always take the movement!" is usually in the lead on those polls.
While I would take 6+4 movement most of the time, there are occasions where it's worth reconsidering. I'm not really sold on increasing a big guy's movement, if I can also get guard and move him one skill closer to being able to pick block. |
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deckerCKY
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
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Feb 04, 2009 - 10:43 |
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I don't like +MA on chaos warriors. It makes them as good as beastmen at blitzing, but it doesn't have the same team benefit as block, guard and mighty blow. As a 4th skill, I'd likely take it, but the bread and butter are better than MA in general. |
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Qaz
Joined: Apr 28, 2004
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Feb 04, 2009 - 10:48 |
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Gromrilram wins not of what he said but because his forum Avatar is so god damn COOL!
I mean look at it
Woa! just Woa!
who the frag made that beauty? |
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Last edited by Qaz on %b %04, %2009 - %15:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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Feb 04, 2009 - 13:55 |
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Err, please stop spamming? |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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Feb 04, 2009 - 14:34 |
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About the TS formula:
http://fumbbl.com/help:Strength
You add up the value of the new stat:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
MA -6 -6 -4 -2 -1 0 2.5 4 5 8 13 15
ST -6 -3 0 6 9 12 18 20
AG -4 -2 0 2 6 8
AV -5 -5 -5 -5 -4.5 -4 -2 0 1 3
plus : 2 + (nb of skills-1)/2
Which means that going from MA 6 to 7 adds 4.5 TS on a skillless lineman (there's a redux after TS 12, basically halved)
In term of optimization, there's a huge up between MA 6 and 7.
But basically, I find the add up of 2+cumulative a bit too much as an addition especially since the increase is already counted. 1+cumulative would (maybe) have been more correct.
some exemple:
+MA as the first skill on:
an high elf lineman adds: +4,5 TS
a dwarf: +4TS
a CW: +3TS
2*+MA means:
HE: +8.5TS
dorf: +6,5
CW: +7TS |
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johan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 04, 2009 - 15:52 |
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What skills you have access to matters a lot. For instance, taking +MA is a bad move on a Black Orc (MA 4, AG 2) because there are so many other good skills he could take. Meannwhile, taking +MA is good on a Longbeard (MA 4, AG 2) since there are only two good skill picks for the 'Beard on standard skill rolls.
And again, if I have a Black Orc with Block/MB/Guard/Tackle, +MA is starting to look nice for the next skill - the Black Orc is running out of good skill picks (BT is the only other thing that really comes to mind). |
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deckerCKY
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
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Feb 07, 2009 - 00:31 |
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I dunno...first skill on a black orc is questionable, but once they have block, and especially once they have block/guard, that extra movement is probably best. |
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Tinkywinky
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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Jun 27, 2009 - 02:49 |
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To resurrect an old but interesting topic I'd like to add this good general advice:
"Never take +MA on a player that has access to GA or GS skills unless he has at least three skills already. If he started with block or dodge you can sometimes pick it after two other skills."
This comes from me as a league and tournament coach. A beastman with block is better than a beastman with +MA. A beastman with block and MB is better than a beastman with +MA and block. A beastman with block, MB and tackle is usually slighly better than a beastman with +MA, block and tackle. A beastman with MB, block and tackle that rolls an aging niggle on his 51 spp skill is equally bad as the fast moving one. What I want to say with this is that the normal skill is obiously better in the short run. The long run is so far into the future that it's very probable that the player has either aged or gotten injured before you get any benefit from the move.
List of players that don't follow the above rule:
Amazons and norse: These teams make wonderful use of higher speed as they really lack it.
Throwers: better pickups after kickoff, less gfi to make shorter passes
Mummies: MA 3 is just too slow and mummies tend to skill up fast enough.
Ghouls Undead ghouls especially. The team lacks speed and ghouls only have the DT+SS alternative.
Human catchers: their skill choices are pretty limited and they already start with dodge so they only need one skill for blodge, SS+DT is good but a fast catcher tends to be quite useful, it's not a given choice to take MA but it can be good.
Dark elf blitzers: They get a lot of spp and run out of choices that are better than MA pretty quick. Dark elves can also make good use of speed as they are slow compared to other ball playing teams.
Dwarf positionals: Dwarfs suffer from their lack of speed, especially on their ball handling players. Why not +MA on longbeards you may ask? The answer is that they skill so slowly that you dont want to have 20 games extra with one guard or mb less.
Pro elf blitzers: Already starts out with block and sidestep which are two of the first three choices of an elf.
Orch blitzers A really slow moving team. Getting a tackler with 7 MA is quite a bonus.
Gutter runners and WE catchers: If you want to create a one turner.
Wardancers: They run out of good skills pretty fast as they start with three. |
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Last edited by Tinkywinky on %b %27, %2009 - %19:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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Zombie69
Joined: Jul 02, 2007
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Jun 27, 2009 - 02:53 |
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That's only true of your main concern is short term success. If like me, your main concern is about making that players as good as he can be long term, you'll take the MA simply because it will make him better by the time he reaches his 4th skill.
Of course in leagues or tournaments short term is more important, but otherwise it's not necessarily wrong to look for long term first and foremost, it just depends on what your goals are. For example, if your goal is to build a team that will win a major, go long term. |
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Hogshine
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Jun 27, 2009 - 03:13 |
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| Zombie69 wrote: | | That's only true of your main concern is short term success. If like me, your main concern is about making that players as good as he can be long term, you'll take the MA simply because it will make him better by the time he reaches his 4th skill. |
Not always. It depends entirely what you want the team to be used for. A longbeard (for example) with 4 skills, even if one of them is +ma, will not be worth his TR compared to a longbeard with guard/MB, unless he's rolled doubles or +st. Dorfs don't die too often, so I'd be tempted to sack players reaching 51spp without getting strength or a couple of doubles (assuming the team's in decent shape, of course).
Note: the above isn't really a concern if you're planning on entering a Major with a really high TR team anyway. However, if you want to build for tours etc, then controlling your TR is a good idea. |
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Igvy
Joined: Apr 29, 2007
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Jun 27, 2009 - 03:16 |
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5+5 only on treeman. or maybe catcher/gutter
4+6 on
orc - black orcs, orc blitzers, goblins (I'm a TTM 1 turn fan)
WE - catchers
Scaven - gutters
CD - hobs
most of the previous advice is good. |
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Tinkywinky
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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Jun 27, 2009 - 03:38 |
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| Zombie69 wrote: | That's only true of your main concern is short term success. If like me, your main concern is about making that players as good as he can be long term, you'll take the MA simply because it will make him better by the time he reaches his 4th skill.
Of course in leagues or tournaments short term is more important, but otherwise it's not necessarily wrong to look for long term first and foremost, it just depends on what your goals are. For example, if your goal is to build a team that will win a major, go long term. |
I don't play ranked but even in ranked the goal is to win as many games as possible. I do agree with what you are saying about grooming teams for majors. But excepting those: What is the average lifespan of a player in a league where people don't pull punches and foul? 20 games? Even if the player will be better in games 15-20 I wouldn't say that his total accomplishments for the the team would have been better if he chose +MA, usually it's the other way around. |
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Ansbach
Joined: Jul 12, 2004
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Jun 27, 2009 - 17:38 |
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I'm not a big fan of +MA except in some of the obvious examples above. It ultimately boils down to the opportunity cost - how often and how important is taking that one extra step going to be vs. what you gave up to get the +MA?
I think another good rule of thumb to add is that in most cases if you can select a skill that is going to be used more frequently than the extra movement (i.e. block), take that skill instead. |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 27, 2009 - 22:08 |
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I don't know. I like +MA. Most of the discussion here seems to focus on the individual player in case only. But that's not all. One of the key points of playing well is positioning. And on that end +MA is incredibly useful. The more you can outrun (or keep up with) the opposition the more options you have to force the direction of movement of both teams. The further a player can move the better he can act as a mobile cover, lending assists here and there. Individually other skills might be more useful.
This is why I feel evaluating +MA is probably the hardest of the three stat increases. +ST is obvious. +AG is mainly about the individual player's performance. The usefuleness (or not) of +MA depends entirely on how the game progresses - and I don't think you can make a clear argument for or against. It only ever really works in hindsight on the match you just completed ... but with all the randomness involved in the game that won't help predicting usefulness of higher movement in the future. In most cases at least. |
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Snappy_Dresser
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
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Jun 27, 2009 - 22:50 |
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| Kinks wrote: | Obviously yes for trees.
Always yes on a thrower.
Otherwise your guidelines sound pretty good. |
Trees and mummies. It's tough to produce a hard and fast rule for +MA though. It's really rather nuanced. |
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