Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
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Feb 02, 2017 - 22:36 |
 
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Ranked doesn't count bghandras  but yes you will have a positive record against dwarfs because you are a good coach. I think Dhak has an 8-0 record and even I have a positive one.
And remember the average dwarf team you play against is not a fair comparison as your team is better constructed. If you played dwarfs by 1300 tv you would probably have 7 or 8 guard and 5 or 6 mighty blow plus some bonus skills. The average coach does find them the worst matchup and whilst it's hard to prove I suspect it's true even for good coaches.
Jim, I disagree, I started playing high tv zone precisely to try and improve. I saw how good Dhak was at some things and think it is in part from his experience. Every play can dodge and can block but your positioning and risk assessment needs to be good as you aren't good enough at any one thing to get out of jail free. I think they need excellent positioning to succeed at high tv. At low tv they are a bit easy I will grant you, but still many try and do not do as well as some, so there is still skill in there in maximising that win rate.
OP it depends on your question. If you are saying 'can you play 'zons as a passing team every drive' then I am sorry the answer is that there is a more effective way to play. If you are saying 'can you be successful with or without frenzy?' then yes there are different points of view. Just some of the big questions to you may have very definite answers. So bghandras and I can have a reasonable debate about the worst opponent and I respect his point of view and he may respect mine. There will be some topics where there isn't a debate to be had.
Very happy to try and help with any specific questions. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Feb 02, 2017 - 22:42 |
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The aspect of positioning is what I was getting at when I belaboured over the idea of mass ma6 over an 8 turn drive.
Most other teams have something else - ag4, some st4 (or an st4 horns blitz), a few Ma7+, hypnogaze etc. Zons, do not. If you cannot execute a good drive reliably, you will quickly lose games, and it doesn't matter how you build them or play them there, there's not much margin for error because their roster doesn't have "automatic" freaks.
Funnily enough it was watching bghandras play pro elves that lead me to that conclusion, but that's another story. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Feb 02, 2017 - 22:55 |
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"So bghandras and I can have a reasonable debate about the worst opponent and I respect his point of view and he may respect mine. "
I surely do respect. It is quite possible the answer is "it depends". (who plays vs who) |
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moussambani
Joined: May 13, 2004
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Feb 02, 2017 - 22:59 |
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Yeah, OK. But the main question is about recovery. I say in the ToC that the main plan is a 2-1 grind. But how are the girls with recovery?
For instance. Skaven win the toss and choose to kick. Blitz! happens, and Amazons efforts to recover don't work too well. Skaven score on turn 3. Game over?
Another hypothetical situation that I can think about is. First half, Amazons received the ball and it's now Turn 6. There is a good possibility to score this turn, and Amazon are a couple of girls down (KO). Better to score now, and give Orcs a 3-turn chance to equalize, or try to endure two more turns of Orcs bashing to score in turn 8 as intended?
In more general terms, if we are not given seven turns to drive the ball, is there something we can do? |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Feb 02, 2017 - 23:15 |
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Blitz can be limited by double cover on each side. 5 on LOS, 2 on each side, 1 back for ball and one tackler behind los. Amazon setup should focus on limiting the effects of PD and blitz. |
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Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
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Feb 02, 2017 - 23:24 |
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So your questions are not really specific to amazons, although you have framed them as such. They are good questions.
If with any team you are 1-0 down it is not game over. Until it is mathematically impossible, there is still something you can do. It gets progressively harder and you may have to force the play a bit more but you shouldn't give up. Of course you will be statistically less successful than if you were starting at 0-0 but all we can do in Blood Bowl is maximise our probability of success in each situation. Sometimes that maximum is 1% compared to 0.5% but it's that maximisation process that adds up over many games to differentiate the good coaches.
How long to stall? This is an assessment of the probability that they stop you compared to the probability that they score in the time remaining. Each situation will be different. There is no general answer. The closest you can get to a rule is, if you can stall with zero risk, you should unless you a) need/want multiple touchdowns for some reason or b) you are considering not scoring because of the number of kos etc. And even this will sometimes be violated (off topic but vampires always have some risk) most likely because your opponent is out of rerolls / in a bad way and you want to score 2-3 times and put the game to bed.
In most situations the more turns you have to complete a drive the better. But if you have fewer there is something you can do. All teams can score in one turn with the required luck and poor set up from the opposition. In two turns all teams can score with the required luck regardless of opposition set up. So again it's just a case of maximising the probability of success. Here there really are a myriad of options but quick scores are normally passing plays and involve punching down one sideline and constructing the best sideline cage one can and trying to force through to the endzone. |
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moussambani
Joined: May 13, 2004
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Feb 03, 2017 - 01:46 |
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Well, it's true that these questions can't be more than a specific situation. But then there's this "Don't develop a true thrower and a true catcher", and you end up missing a potential game-tying touchdown on turn 16 on a 3-turn drive...
I'm not sure the intention of the project is well understood. I'm not trying to tell people how to play Amazons. I want to show people how to play Amazons. |
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Jim_Fear
Joined: May 02, 2014
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Feb 03, 2017 - 03:21 |
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It all revolves around the linewomen. They are inexpensive and may grow into specialists due to the skills they develop. Also, thanks to their inexpensiveness and their habit of getting injured, if a linewomen does not roll a double or a stat increase within her first two rolls, she can be replaced with another linewomen and start over again.
From the constant rotating of players you can build a dedicated +AG or +MA ball carrier, some Frenzy equipped hitters to back up the blitzers, a DP kicker, and still maintain a team of 12 to 13 players in a TV which is still feasible for Amazons.
Call this the "Jim_Fear Picker Playbook" for all I care, it is very effective. |
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moussambani
Joined: May 13, 2004
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Feb 03, 2017 - 07:35 |
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So, one way to categorize the rolls would be:
66 (1/36)
65 (2/36)
55 (1/36)
64 (2/36)
Other double (4/36)
Regular (26/36)
Jim_Fear would be saying replacing a linewoman after two regulars (something that happens ~52% of time)
Again, the idea would be presenting the tried and true plan A, and give options for the rest, explaining how often would they be useful and such, and let the player decide. In other words, give a coach an Amazon team and he'll play that team. Teach a coach how to build an Amazon team and he'll become a real Amazon coach. Or something like that.
One thing that should be included in the roster creation section (if this is to become a true generic guide) is building for different environments. A continuous league like in here, short leagues for groups of friends or so, and tournaments that have things like increased budget and skill packs.
Are we agreed that the Table of Contents in the second post is good? Shall I set a GoogleDoc or something?
On the topic of diagram creators again, bbpusher is easy to use, but might be a bit unwieldy? Ideally (I don't know if something like that exists), I'd need something that gives clarity, and embeddable images. If we can add some sort of "dynamic" play (notes on each player and arrows on the field) all the better.
Also, I agree that passing play should not be the main option (maybe if by some weird luck I get an AG5 Thrower?), but what about the "sixth point pass" after an MVP? And is a handoff-quickpass combo a good option of advancing the ball quickly shall it be needed? Only in desperation, I agree, as that's at least three rolls. (A turn 15 thing trailing by one)
In that situation but with a tie, it's probably better (unless the situation is such that it requires a win, like last round of the first stage of a tournament or something like that), as turning the ball over would backfire big time.
Amazons play for the STS, (The second S is for 'Score', I don't like the looks of "STTD", hehe). But if needed, can we do something to facilitate a FTS or a TTS? (I like how the numbers work here. The first S stands for Six or Seven. The F for Four or Five, and the T for Two or Three, hehe). |
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Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
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Feb 03, 2017 - 10:03 |
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| moussambani wrote: | Well, it's true that these questions can't be more than a specific situation. But then there's this "Don't develop a true thrower and a true catcher", and you end up missing a potential game-tying touchdown on turn 16 on a 3-turn drive...
I'm not sure the intention of the project is well understood. I'm not trying to tell people how to play Amazons. I want to show people how to play Amazons. |
So the first part: in a tv matched environment it isn't likely to be worth doing it AND it doesn't stop you making the play, it just makes it harder. In other environments it may be (e.g. for a major) BUT it just makes it easier. In each case the coach has to balance the value compared to the cost.
If you would like to show people how to play Amazons my suggestion would be to find replays that demonstrate the things you want to show. One can create the situations but it is hugely time intensive and still limited as it tends to only show a turn or two. Better to show people 5 games where Amazons overcame being 1-0 down and 5 where they scored in 2 turns etc.
And then for the more theoretical teaching, unless you are prepared to go to great efforts I would direct them to the thousand losses playbook.
Sorry if this isn't what you want, but I am trying to suggest what I think is best. |
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moussambani
Joined: May 13, 2004
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Feb 04, 2017 - 00:37 |
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Showing replays is a different project, I think. And Thousand Losses is good, but generic, and I want to talk about Amazons in particular, although the thoroughness of Thousand Losses is sort of what I want to replicate here.
I've been playing with SAC and I made a spreadsheet with probabilities of passing plays, with the understanding that this is not the main way of moving the ball, and it is only done in desperation cases or recovery when something doesn't go to plan and the alternative is losing by one. (However, a quick pass is still a great way of getting SPP#6, I think).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nRpwsL3A0uXNbylyIYxXDqEkT3XWmeb9ik68lWPUbTo/edit?usp=sharing
Notes
- For the time being, it only shows with a Team RR and no Interception. The idea is to complete the cases, and then use that to show why playing on the ground is safer.
- Pass roll on top, catching on the left. The P and C indicate Pass and Catch skill (using "the right positional")
- Obviously, team RR doesn't help when both skills are there, and is a substitute when only one is, although of course that may spend a RR and the supply is limited.
- Big drop when the Pass is at 5+, avoid at all reasonable costs. It is better to do a GFI, or even a dodge at 3+, if that will make the pass roll a 4+. Same probability if you have to do both and can't reroll the GFI.
- Standard situation is 3+ (AG3 Quick), 3+ (AG3 Accurate), a 4/5 to 3/4 play. I've added the 2+ for cases when you have an AG4 player or two. Pass at 4+ is AG3 short, or AG4 long, but we already know that.  |
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delusional
Joined: Jan 18, 2013
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Feb 04, 2017 - 03:24 |
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Isn't it time Amazons got a re-write? It's literally still a cookie cutter team of all dodge + positionals on a 6337 base. Like can't you just make a guide "don't play past 150TV unless you min/max stat freaks. Pick block and dodge, get 1 leader and 1 player with kick. Fire anyone past 3 skills without a stat boost"?
Yes, please create the guide. Amazons are a fun team, but they could be far better with a proper development... I.e. more side step, diving catch and fend. Less dodge+block. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Feb 04, 2017 - 04:31 |
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Disagree strongly. Having played a lot of Amazons, they have their own flavor. They're their own kind of bash team. If you gave them SS, DC, and Fend at the expense of Dodge and Block, I'd probably not consider them but on a lark. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Feb 04, 2017 - 04:51 |
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In my opinion Amazons would be more interesting with MA 7 Catchers (or Runners with Dodge, Sure Hands) and Linewomen priced 60,000 to make positionals more appealing.
MA 6 is the main reason many coaches refrain from using Catchers. |
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Zanzib
Joined: Dec 21, 2016
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Feb 04, 2017 - 09:46 |
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Amazon roster is awful because :
- positional uninteresting
- potential of cheese at low TV is huge
- difference of power low/high TV too big.
Catcher and thrower are useless and overpriced compared to linewomen.
Hell even blitzer are overpriced as some coaches even fired them once they have linewomen developed to cheese the max of the flawed roster (maybe they keep one or two to have a pomber). So linewomen should be 60k
I agree catchers should be MV7 (for an increased price), that would make them valuable and the team better at high TV.
Maybe give Blitzer AV8 (for increased price) to make them a bit different, the team better at high TV while not much improved at low TV (due to the increased price) at low TV.
It would be cool to add sure hand or more original accurate (for +10k TV) to the thrower.
This way they could add something to the roster (even if not really better but at least a "fair" option) instead of waiting to have any player rolling a +AG to make him the BC. As it is thrower are totally useless. |
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