spubbbba
Joined: Jul 31, 2006
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Jun 15, 2020 - 19:13 |
 
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I've always thought the variable skill cost is probably the simplest fix. But for that to work you have to make the good skills cost more and the poor ones less.
So passblock would be only 10k, whilst block would be 30k. This would require rebalancing the starting costs of certain players and teams like Dwarfs or Amazons. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Jun 15, 2020 - 19:18 |
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spubbbba, did you see the link I posted? It has (dozens of) rules around the repricing and rebalancing of starting rosters based on that repricing. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 15, 2020 - 19:18 |
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Pass Block 10k would still be a bad pick (it takes a skill slot for marginal use), but in general I agree that some good core skills should be priced a bit more.
Also, I guess that prices should be in steps of 5k, it would make for a more accurate system. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Jun 15, 2020 - 19:34 |
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Harder to do in the current client. Possible though if people thought it really would help. But overall, I'm trying to limit changes to be familiar as much as possible, so right now everything must remain a multiple of 10k. |
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MrCushtie
Joined: Aug 10, 2018
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Jun 15, 2020 - 19:40 |
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While we're at it, Wild Animal should allow fouling on a 2+ as well. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 15, 2020 - 19:52 |
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I don't think so, because Minotaur could be moved on a 2+ declaring a Foul Action without actually fouling at the end of it.
The idea behind Wild Animal is making the movement 2+ only with Block and Blitz Actions, otherwise, if he could move 2+ by declaring a Foul Action, the drawback would be minor (no need to risk and maybe waste a Blitz to make him move with a 2+).
This is how I would change current Wild Animal:
Wild Animal: the player requires 2+ to Block or Blitz and 3+ to perform the other Actions.
3+ to move is still a drawback, but a bit nerfed compared to current 4+.
That said, Wild Animal rule doesn't portray well a player rampaging and blindly hitting team mates and opponents, a more fitting idea could be turning the Wild Animal into a random ball & chain (but without being injured automatically when Knocked down or Prone) with MA 3 when failing the Wild Animal test.
Roll a d6 before moving each square:
1,2,3 = the opponent decides the direction and uses the throw-in template to move the player.
4,5,6 = you decide the direction and use the throw-in template for moving.
But that's just a quick idea, I guess that reducing the dice roll for non-Block/Blitz Actions from 4+ to 3+ would still be quite ok. |
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stej
Joined: Jan 05, 2009
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Jun 15, 2020 - 20:41 |
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If skills were priced well, why not do away with skill slots and allocate skill value when you skill up that could be spent or saved for the next skill up.
So one could have multiple cheap skills or a few expensive good skills |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Jun 15, 2020 - 21:33 |
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My thought behind correct pricing is then to make skilling up a choice - you still only get one skill, so do you take a good expensive one, or a not so good but cheaper one?
Much the same as choosing how deep your bench will be.
With that goal in mind, it still makes sense to only gain one skill regardless of value on skill up. Teams end up looking very different then. |
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Matthueycamo
Joined: May 16, 2014
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Jun 16, 2020 - 00:41 |
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I think there are reasons not considered in the OP about how some skills are supposed to work in combination or the reasons why some skills like pass block or dump off are "underused" because it's not always down to the skill not being good at what it was designed for. Passing is more risky than running the ball in general so it's not usually the go to tactic, Blood bowl is generally a run first game. Some of the assertions about race strength for example are I think just flat out wrong like Nurgle and Chaos being weaker, they arn't overall. Once they get going they are two of the best races in the game. So you buff them at starting TV the effect is compounded at higher TV making them even better. But that's the difference between table top tournaments and online for example. You can't make things even at every level for all types of play. Leaving aside whether it is desirable it's actually not achievable.
I'll Just to take one example to adress directly rather than posting an essay adressing all the changes.
Strong Arm/Hail Mary-Combine these skills, make accessible to both Strength and Passing Players.
Rationale: Strong-arm is currently just worse than accurate, and hail mary is at trap for new players, but is kinda cool. At least combining them makes them slightly more interesting.
So Strong Arm over accurate. The idea is not you take one or the other, the idea is you if you like to pass the ball around you take both if you can. If you roll doubles on a thrower and like passing the ball you take strong arm whether you have accurate or not and if it's the first skill you take accurate next, well after block anyway.
If you have an AG4 thrower and have Strong Arm and accurate you now long bomb on a 3+! God forbid you have an AG5 thrower, If you include moving you can you can basically move the ball anywhere you want on the pitch on a 2+! Most throwers start with pass so now you have a 1/36 chance of failing your pass across half the length of the field! Are they odds that need a buff by being cheaper and more achievable?
So the reason I think Strong arm is a strength skill not a passing skill is twofold. First easy acess for Big guys for certain TTM attempt situations to help cancel negative modifiers that the big guy might be facing. Second and more importantly so that it's harder for elves in particular to develop uber pass anywhere throwers on a 3+ or 2+ with just a single +AG. Because the combination of strong arm and accurate is passing wise really strong thus making it easier and cheaper to get is a buff to elves. In another rationale about Shadowing you say that elves need a nerf so the suggested changes don't actually link together very well. There are these unconsidered effects with end results that contradict each other.
Hail Mary and some other skills in general being a trap for new players? Only if you don't read the rules before you start playing to find out what they actually do. I think it's reasonable to expect people to read the rules of a game before playing it, if you don't that's kind of on you not the game.
It's always to good to think about rule changes, I have some silly ones and some not so silly ones that I think I might like to see (Like in a Vamp mirror being able to bite the opponents thralls  ) but it's usually never as simple as thinking about each change in isolation it's all a lot more joined up than we initially think. |
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MarckusOfCamlan
Joined: Jul 20, 2017
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Jun 16, 2020 - 01:22 |
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I reallly like most of Frowny proposal, not for the sake of new player, but for diversity of playstyle and fun  |
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Frowny
Joined: Apr 27, 2020
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Jun 16, 2020 - 22:37 |
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Thanks for all the positive feedback!
I agree, that differential pricing might also be necessary. I made no attempt to balance skills against eachother overall, just a few of the worst ones. Block remains way way way better than anything I propose. But even if you did that, still you'd end up with 10k skills, 20k skills, 30k skills etc. that wouldn't all be equal. Block is better than sidestep at 10k. Sidestep is better than pass block at 10k.
I'm surprised at how many people are resistant to change. Even my most aggressive proposal (probably juggernaut), is still far weaker than most of the tier 1 skills, and at best might be like wrestle. Moreover, Most of the rationale seems to be opposed to change rather than problems with any specific ones opposed. For example, maybe juggernaut would be strong enough to be picked early. Is that a bad thing? I think it might be better. |
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DrDeath
Joined: Mar 27, 2011
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Jun 17, 2020 - 01:42 |
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Interesting suggestions, but I'm not sure the game really needs tweaking that much. It's already pretty balanced, because the rules have gradually evolved for over 30 years. Some of your suggested tweaks are interesting, but I think they could make the rules a bit too complicated - that would detract for newbies, and even experienced coaches on tabletop. One of the beauties of Blood Bowl is that like all great games, you can quickly pick up the rules but it's difficult to master...
I don't get the dark elf runner hate - I always pick one from the start and find them well worth the investment. Rookie assassins are indeed rubbish though, and will probably stay that way
I agree with a few others here, it should be pretty obvious even to a newbie what the core skills are, and I don't think it's a problem that some are 'core skills' either. I would also add that some of the more unusual skills are not always useless, they can be solid picks for the right player. For example Pass Block is derided above, ok usually it is suboptimal but in some situations it can be great. One of the GLT Qualifier Finals a few nights ago was pretty much won by an Elf Catcher intercepting with Ag5, Nerves of Steel, Catch and Pass Block. A very nice combination for elfballing. Both teams were well over 2000TV if I recall and that skill only cost 20k - so it was a sound pick! |
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Felix17
Joined: May 23, 2019
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Jun 17, 2020 - 02:47 |
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One change I would like to see is to make Claw an Agility skill.
At present, Claw/Mighty Blow is just too good a combo. It's almost compulsory on those teams with access to it. The problem is that many players with Claw access on normal rolls have Strength access on normals as well. This is a key reason why high TV Chaos and Nurgle teams are so lethal against other bash teams who really have no answer apart from Guard and hope (and Guard can also be freely taken by Chaos and Nurgle). Agility teams can at least hope to dodge away; Black Orcs, Saurus and Dwarves, not so much.
I think there is a place for Claw, as something is needed to stop high AV teams beating the snot out of everyone else. But I think giving Claw to a small group of what are already very bashy teams is the wrong move. I think it is needed more by agility teams to give them something to hit back with.
By making it an Agility skill, Claw would become easily accessible to Elves, Stunties, Gutter Runners and a few others, few of whom have normal access to Strength skills and MB. Most of the teams mentioned will want to get Dodge/Block/Wrestle/Tackle/SS onto players so I don't think there will be that many Claw players, though I imagine it will be taken by some, especially anyone who might gain access to MB.
What this means for those who currently have easy access to Claw is that they will have to do what Orcs and Dwarves do; load up on MB and Guard (which they usually have anyway) and accept that AV8/9 can be hard to penetrate.
For it to be an Agility skill, we'd need to change the name and fluff. Call it Accurate Blow or something and say that it's a well-directed punch into a weak spot in the armour. Treat as AV7. Done!
Wardancers might become a bit more obnoxious, but they were that anyway |
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MrCushtie
Joined: Aug 10, 2018
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Jun 17, 2020 - 05:40 |
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Taking away access to Claw makes Chaos less good Orcs.
I think the problem is that when you're up in the heady air of 2000+ TV, it's a very different game to lower down. Trying to fix the problem of giant killy Chaos teams induces other problems for lower TVs, and vice versa.
That's why tournament rules that prevent skill spamming (like Spike, as the first example that comes to mind) are a nice solution - but inapplicable for Box in its current incarnation. If you could make skills cost more as more players on your team learned them, that could make things more interesting - although again, inducing complexity that isn't necessarily going to add to enjoyment... |
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mekutata
Joined: May 03, 2015
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Jun 17, 2020 - 07:48 |
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I dreamt recently that Grab lets you pick up downed players.. so you can block/blitz them instead of fouling. |
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