JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Apr 20, 2008 - 12:53 |
 
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Ok then.
DP on the dragon warrior is crap. Get blodge instead, and make him your ballcarrier.
As I said, you don't need 2 phoenix warriors. They add to your TR and don't really do anything important a lino can do.
Also, get surehands as first skill on phoenix warriors. It makes much safer to pick up the ball after you've rolled your usual doubleskull on los and burned a rr for that, and it also helps on defence... surehands makes picking up a loose ball in tacklezones a lot easier.
All for now. I will add more when I see your way of playing through replays. |
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LordSnotball
Joined: Nov 05, 2004
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Apr 20, 2008 - 13:43 |
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With elves, whenever i get to choose i always choose to kick, not receive...
the idea is that ur opponent will have to score by turn 8 the latest, which a) gives u an opportunity to try an OTT, b) gives u a higher chance for your KOs to wake up (once when ur opponent scores, and once at the end of the half), c) your opponent spends more time forming a cage than blocking, whereas when you receive your opponent blocks you a lot more...
Skills:
Get Dodge on all players as a 1st choice, with the exception of stat bonuses (except +ma on a lineman) and the 1st dragon warrior to skill up. Linemen with dodge can dodge away from opponents and add that crucial assist u need to break the cage. Once they have dodge they also become a serious scoring threat, and end up getting block after a few games... normally much faster than a block lineman gets Casualties and eventually gets dodge.
A blitzer/dragon warrior is an essential player for opening up holes in ur opponent's defence, which enables ur catcher to sneak through. However, with 2 dragon warriors u often find 1 MNG and the other KOed from turn 1. I found that using a catcher as a blitzer pays off big time. ppl see the catcher and dont see him as a serious threat, until u do a really nasty 8ma blitz and create chaos...
1 dragon warrior, 1st skill needs strip ball. dodge sounds like a better option normally, but watch this replay:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=2167370
the opponent had a killer chaos team with claw/rsc/guard and the ball on the CW, caged most of the time. my dragon warrior blitzed him twice, 1st time a -2db and 2nd time a 2db, both times getting a pushback result. with strip ball i put an end to the stalling cage game, and the second time i managed to squeeze a TD out of it...
DP is an essential tool to all elf teams, as is Kick, but you need to have 3-4 linemen with dodge as a 1st skill before you can afford it...
also, u need to build up on combinations, in my league HE team im working on a dauntless/guard/DP combo, 1 skill per player. Imagine, your opponent has given the ball to an Ogre, your guard sneaks in, counters assists and adds his own assist to the block. ur dauntless blitzes, makes the roll, and u get a 2db on an ogre. The ogre falls over, and then your DP swoops in and *foul*...
or a catcher with dodge, sure feet, sprint (8ma + 3gfi)
anyway, STOP choosing block as ur 1st skill on your linemen, and you'll be on ur way to Elfball competence  |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Apr 20, 2008 - 13:48 |
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I disagree. A mix of dodge and block is better than an all dodge team (unless you are picky and avoid dorfs and chaos dorfs. If you want to have a good team a mix is perfect, with dodgers who can tie up non-blockers (an elven lino with dodge is the perfect tie up for a rookie BoB: the bob won't take him down without a turnover, and the lino can disengage easily if needed) and with blockers for blitzes.
You don't need to play very aggressively: just put annoying tackle zones around, making sure they are 1d blocks unless an assist is needed (to 2d block you, your opponent will move 1 player for the assist and another to block, so it's 2 guys moved just for a chance to know you down). Soon a mistake or a bad dice turn will open a gap for 1d on the ball. That's where you win your game. |
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nin
Joined: May 27, 2005
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Apr 20, 2008 - 16:18 |
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More on Kick.
I see that this is a matter of playstile probably.
For example, I like to start on offense because that way I've 11 good players and all my RRs. It makes easier for me to delay the touch a couple of turns (instead of a 2 turn touch, a 3-4 turn one). Then I can kick deep and see what happens (usually with still enougth players to do something). If there is a chance I can go for the ball, if my opponent makes a cage deep in his half, I'll try to delay it (easier now that it's a 6-5 turns drive). That makes a 1-0 result for the first half more likely for me so, either my opponent settles for the drawn (and I can press him all out) or tryes to score "quickly" (and I'll have a chance for another touch)
Someone sugested you to take a look at Nandoris matches... well, it's a nice team, but a bit on the elfball side.
I suggest you to take a look at this group. Not every team in the ELF is a marvel, but there are very good teams and coaches. |
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LordSnotball
Joined: Nov 05, 2004
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Apr 20, 2008 - 16:19 |
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as i said to you in chat... maybe...
playing dwarves isnt so bad, as long as u dont lose 4 players in the first 2 turns (bad vs any opponent). even with dwarves at low TR, the positionals dont have tackle, so the dwarf blitzer/runner/troll slayers don't have tackle, and well, you can still dodge away from the dwarves with 2+ most of the time...
Block is definitely a great skill to have, and pays off in the future. for my style Block is less important than Dodge, coz dodge will win you games, whereas block will keep your player out of the KO box. And when you have run out of RRs, its turn 8, and u have the opportunity to score, as long as u can make this last final 2+ dodge, you know that nuffle will favour you...
Dodge becomes less important later on when your opponent has 3-5 players with tackle, but by then you have block anyway, and dodge still works miracles if you are careful... |
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Colin
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 20, 2008 - 17:49 |
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| nin wrote: | | For example, I like to start on offense because that way I've 11 good players and all my RRs. |
I'd concur with this - it's easier to defend when you're in the lead, and it especially helps if you start losing players.
I used to kick first with High Elves, but all too often, I'd get steamrollered (I consider myself a very good defensive coach, but there's only so much you can do with so few skills against, usually, Orc teams) and be in serious difficulties for the second half, making the tie the best result possible from about half time onwards.
And DP on a Dragon Warrior?!! I'd like to know what the thought processes were on that, it's about one of the worst skill picks possible. Strip Ball is the best first skill for them, along with Dodge (depends on your preference which comes first). |
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Agenda42
Joined: Jan 01, 2008
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May 24, 2008 - 00:57 |
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The best piece of advice I would offer is to block back in a tactical fashion. You can't win the battle with a bashy team by man marking up, but you don't have to dodge away from every engagement, either. If you have two players man marked, you can dodge one away and use him to set up a 2d block on the other guy. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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May 24, 2008 - 02:42 |
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Recently I've grown really drawn to kicking rather than recieving. My defence is alot stronger than my offence and the advantage of having two KO recovery rolls if things go wrong or being able to chose between 1 or 2 rolls if things go right is a very tangible advantage. Theres nothing like breaking an opponents offence in the first half to break someones fighting spirit.
| Kinks wrote: | Jan,
Admittedly it would be a challenge. However I have won games with soft teams against basher teams and basher teams against soft teams without stalling (referring to before I played fummbl before you check my match record!).
I can understand people using stalling tactics in tournaments, but not for regular play (i.e. unranked, ranked and league games) it just spoils the game.
Maybe a WE team would like to play my Khemri and I could try and show you....... |
Hi, I didnt used to like stalling and I still hate it conceptually however I now think that it is fine as a tactic. Heres why...
Stalling is (usually) just good sense. Its a result of the game mechanics and the inherant flaw of having such a time limited game combined with such a powerful offence. I accept stalling because of the following scenario:
- chaos dorf vs wood elf
- chaos dorf offence.
- 1 - woodies make a solid defence but the chaos dorfs just barely scrape over the line in turn 8
2 - woodies do their trick of running away and not defending properly, chaos dorfs score in turn 4.
- from situation 1 and 2, which is better for the woodelves and which one did the woodies play better in? You'll notice that playing poor defence actually rewarded them with a chance to get a (near certain) reply TD.
I dont think its right that the poor play should be better rewarded, especially since it is possible for lame coaches to deliberately play poor (like stalling but reversed) and then expect their opponent sto score. Stalling being normal means that the woodelf player has to either accept that the half will end 1-0 for the chaos dorfs OR they have to realy go at the ball and pressure it. The same pressure isnt needed if the chaos player dosent stall, in fact attempting such pressure would actually be counterproductive. |
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Mastergabber
Joined: Oct 17, 2007
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May 29, 2008 - 12:42 |
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http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=2193341
This match is a nice example of avoiding a 2-1 loss with a HElf team versus a stronger team coached by CR 160+, using some comments stated in this thread:
1: I won the toss, and choosed to kick-off. Opponent scored some casualties and KO's, and began to stall in turn 5.
2: I however managed to chainpush the ball carrier into the end zone, forcing him to score. I had three turns left and scored in turn 8 of the first half to 1-1.
3: On turn 3 of the second half I scored 2-1, and my only thing to do was to not suffer too many permanent injuries.
4: I kept pressure on the ball so he scored in turn 5, and I still only suffered a -ST on a rookie lineelf (and some MNG's.) I still had 3 turns to go for the 3-2 win, but the kickoff result was a blitz! I suffered a niggle and didn't score anymore, but kept him from scoring too.
So the game ended in a 2-2 tie with only 45% luck on my side. My TS however is dropped from 198 to 128, since I suffered 6 SI's and apo'd the kill. But I enjoyed the game and my fans enjoyed the game too. |
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asharak
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
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May 29, 2008 - 15:36 |
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With my agile teams I'll choose to kick. As SillySod has been rude about above I don't defend all that well. This is quite deliberate. I'm not letting them score fast, but rather trying to force them into it. To do this well you need to work quite hard! You always need to be a threat to the ball, to keep them from hunting you down. At the same time you don't want to get chewed up & do want to cause them pain. My normal choice is leave a couple of players, nearish the sidelines, to draw markers. When my players go down I don't stand them up - generally the marker will stay. A turn later, more distance will have opened up between his marker & any support.
Send a couple of players back & you should suddenly have at least one, hopefully two opposing players looking like getting surfed. If you've done it well they can't quite save them without breaking the defence of the ball & GFI*2 just to put the assists there, not even a blitz. If they do this you go for the ball - generally your playters can dodge back to the ball & outnumber them there. If they go for the quick TD then great! If they ignore it.... surf them & hope for CAS!! OK, the players are probably not vital ones as these are round the ball. However if you can burn some of their spares then they'll get twitchy about fouling etc, as bashers hate to drop below 11 available players vs. agile teams they apparently should outnumber.
Not saying its great.... but gives you something to aim for while failing to stop their drive |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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May 29, 2008 - 16:16 |
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| Quote: | | As SillySod has been rude about above I don't defend all that well. This is quite deliberate. I'm not letting them score fast, but rather trying to force them into it. |
Actually I think thats fine and a perfectly good tactic. What I dont consider to be good is if you didnt do anything at all. Forcing someone to score early is good play but expecting them to score early because you played badly is stupid. People campaining against stalling are the latter |
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TexMurphy
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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May 29, 2008 - 21:23 |
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I wana report back.
Since I started this thread Ive dropped my High Elf teams (will come back to them later) and Im playing a veriaty of other stuff. Learning different races teaches me how to play against them. Though I know jumping around to much means not learning one well enough.
What Ive learned is basicly the following.
Against bashers its key to be agressive. Having a good kicker allows you to be agressive. Not letting the cage form really sounded like a cliche when you guys first said it but its so true. Best way to make sure that it doesnt form is to be between the blockers and the ball.
Ive also noticed that quite a few bashers dont reall know what to do in this situation. Some even just keep bashing in the center focusing up to 7 guys on the 3-5 guys Ive got covering center and deep. That is when playing bashers gets alot of fun. 
Problem with the Elfs for me is that they die before they manage to dodge up.
Tex |
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PorkusMaximus
Joined: May 19, 2008
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May 29, 2008 - 23:46 |
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Well in fairness high elves/dark elves have ar8 so they're no more or less squishy than your average team. I personally find that with HE/DE you can really use your agility to doge out of TZs and maximize 2 dice blocking, although from my personal experience it still gets pretty risky if you're using unskilled linesman to do it.
So far after playing a handful of games with HE and WE, I prefer HE because they feel more flexible at least at low TR. I find that I don't have to do as many risky turnover moves with HE like I do WE, although with WE high risks yield high rewards. |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 30, 2008 - 00:03 |
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Yar. HE/DE are in line with humans in terms of how quick they go out.
I feel kick skill is a tad bit overrated. Someone that plays well will protect the ball back in their field and take measures to not give you a quick break. Those that don't do it ... you'll likely have other opportunities too. I just don't think it is a useful skill before the standard fare of block, dodge, sidestep and tackle on your players. But then I usually play with eleven or less players for long stretches - where survival skills are more important.
I am also on the side of those that receive first if possible. Being the one to start the game provides a greater chance to decide how the first half is being played out. What I want is to go into the second half in the lead. I am very conservative on that end (unless I am feeling like doing something funny which means I lose  ) and prefer to take the full eight turns to score if I can.
That will always put the pressure on the other coach in the second half - no matter if it's an agilty, basher or middle type team. It also allows me to play for the quick counter which is more likely to succeed with few players than a stalling strategy would (i.e. that's why I am doing it first - when I still have enough players to put in between my ball carrier and his players).
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=2194221 <-- what not to do as a bashing team against elves.
-Mnemon |
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