| Poll |
| SHould the TS rebate be removed? |
| Remove the TS rebate |
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58% |
[ 109 ] |
| Keep things as they are |
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23% |
[ 43 ] |
| Keep things as they are, but fix the Leader thing |
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18% |
[ 34 ] |
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| Total Votes : 186 |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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 Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 08:56 |
 
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| Laviak wrote: | I don't think it being a rebate is a problem - *everyone* starts with the rebate, and then pays an additional 5TS for each of their first two rerolls. Whether the costing is correct, I don't know, but the first rerolls are more valueable (in my opinion). I'd argue that it's more the "when combined with other stuff" part that is a problem, not the cost of rerolls (leader and chefs are the big ones)
At the other extreme Is it fair to pit a TS160 chaos team with 8 rerolls at 70 TS each against another TS150 (includes the 10ts rebate) chaos team with 0 rerolls? Basically, what I'm saying is that I think it is a bit broader than just the rebate. |
i agree.
i don't know how much the rebate should be worth (maybe something like 3..6 TS), but i think the current 5 TS is a good number - it would be wrong to remove it, i think.
i also think, that this discussion has reached rather disturbing intellectual levels - 'not sure whether that's just hilarious, though...
| shadow46x2 wrote: | http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=523511
'nuf sed
--j |
<-  lol , that is definetly not "'nuf sed" it's not worth 1 cent to pick 1 team which is doing not bad with 0 RR (not even too good, really) - as most people know: there are teams with much better records with more than 2 RR  .
what i think is really obvious though: Leader is not accounted for correctly (especially at 0 or 1 regular RRs) - this really needs fixing. |
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Shrap
Joined: Sep 18, 2006
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 09:26 |
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yeah...I watched the linked team in action treborius and the coach is baaaaaaaaad but he still manages to have 4 mb 5 guards and a STup all with 118TS.
If that doesnt seem out of the ordinary to you then well...
I watched it dismantle a norse team of 130TS easily.
If you like I can link you a couple other teams that the coach is a SUPER cherry picker in ranked AND now has used this exploit in BB...
Tho I'm sure they will argue against both...AMAZING!! |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 09:50 |
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Shadow is exclusively linking to dwarf teams with 0 rerolls. That's no coincidence. I wonder why Shadow fails to realize the obvious explanation for this:
Not a no-rerolls-"rebate" is the problem - the dwarf rebate is.
The TV-formula undervalues dwarfs. Star players (especially Count Luthor) are the only reason why dwarf-rosters don't dominate low TR-smacks entirely (they still belong to the dominating races, of course).
And by the way:
There is a reason why rerolls have different costs in the board game, ignoring this entirely (as far as I know at least) is another flaw in the TV-formula.
I would also like to point out that Laviak has been absolutely right when he implied that increasing reroll numbers would have diminishing returns. The TV-formula should account for this fact, I think. |
Last edited by Frankenstein on %b %12, %2009 - %10:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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BooAhl
Joined: Sep 02, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 10:00 |
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This is intresting, I will make a dwarf team with 0 RR! |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 10:29 |
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well, to be a bit more constructive than in my last post i'll post what i think is at least one step towards some more meaningful data-analysis:
i've looked up all teams in B, which have at least a win-rate of 70% and at least 25 games played.
There were exactly 11 teams which were (order by # games, played) and corresponging # RR:
Chaos Dwarf 5
Vampire 5
Dark Elf 4
Skaven 4
Dwarf 6
Orc 4
Skaven 3
Human 4
Orc 5
Halfling 0
...now, i don't claim this data to be sufficient in order to derive anything meaningful, but (apart from the 0RR-Halfling team, grats Silly Sod!) all really successful teams seem to have more than 2 RR 
...but maybe having more than 2 RR is borked, now?
...with the exception of halflings - but wait a minute: their racial TS must be borked! |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 11:01 |
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Actually, there's a double factor.
Point 1:
Leader adds 2 to the player value.
0RR+leader =-8 TS (if I understand it well)
1RR= -1TS
What is, of course, wrong (as leader is used differently in the client)
Point 2: Handicaps at -5TS are seldom right. More often than not they are not worth it. So under TS teams are just giving handicaps, hence reducing the TS difference using another flaw. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 11:10 |
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By the way, 0 reroll rebate is maybe a wrong number, but totally not a powergaming option:
Ordered by win percentage, with a minimum of 10 games played, race: Dwarf
The 5 best teams:
Coach:
Lo has advininado: 5 rerolls
Nantii: 6 rerolls
Torulls: 5rerolls
rafadavila: 6rerolls
bald boy:4rerolls
The first 0reroll team is 19th in this classement; It's Westener, with a 28/14/18 result
Ironically, he has a dwarf team with rerolls at 10/1/4, hence doing better than his 0reroll dorfs.
Hence, as I said, linking a few winning teams with 0 reroll doesn't prove anything. |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 11:20 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: | | Ordered by win percentage, with a minimum of 10 games played, race: Dwarf |
how do you do that?
i know how to view only Dwarf and by clicking on "Games" you can order by # games played, but how do you order by win-percentage? 
can you order by td-difference or cas-difference, as well?  |
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Draxus
Joined: Nov 14, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 11:39 |
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Treborius, your data is flawed... because it is biased on teams that played enough and had a high win% That data shows 10 teams and only one, count it (1), of them had 0RR. Look, those nine others had more than 2RR. The mob cares not about teams with silly things like high win%
No, to the FUMBBL MOB... 0RR is not an issue regarding winning matches its about the damage that they might face... They bring up 0RR and link it to mightyblow and gaurd on dwarves who have block and tackle already. They don't link 0RR to woodelves who have +ma and sprint cause that wouldn't be very scary to them.
To capture it once more they are quite bothered about 0RR on Dwarves... not 0RR on woodelves vamps or skaven. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 11:52 |
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| treborius wrote: | | sk8bcn wrote: | | Ordered by win percentage, with a minimum of 10 games played, race: Dwarf |
how do you do that?
i know how to view only Dwarf and by clicking on "Games" you can order by # games played, but how do you order by win-percentage?
can you order by td-difference or cas-difference, as well? |
click on the little percentage sign under "Games"
http://www.fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=teams&group=&race=1&order=11&nav=10
For the minima of 10 games, I just had to count |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 12:26 |
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| Draxus wrote: | Then that is an issue with dwarf teams and not... say Vampire teams. So then look at Dwarves specifically and raise their TS. Do not remove the -10 TS rebate, because for say a vamp team starting out with 4 vamps and no RR that makes them weak. Remember boys and girls TS gives you an idea of how strong a team will be next game.
0RR Rookie Dwarves vs 0RR Rookie Vamps how strong is each team for the next game?
100/??? vs 100/??? |
Using zero RR vampires as a parallel is ridiculous. Vampires need RR in a way that no other team does, even ogres dont come close.
Bear in mind that by having zero RR and a leader instead of (say) 4 RR dosent just save 10TS. For Dwarfs it saves 24TS, for norse and skaven it saves 32TS, and for teams like chaos and nurgle it saves a whopping 36TS.
This is not a dwarf restricted problem. So far I've seen it work great for Dwarfs, Chaos, Nurgle, Skaven, and Halflings but I can see it working out well for Humans, Norse, Chaos Dwarfs and Orcs too. For what its worth my (not inconsiderable) experience of the rebate is that -4/-8 would be pretty close to fair. The teams dont tend to become broken until you throw in a leader or chef so I dont think the rebate should be removed entirely unless the way RR are calculated is changed entirely. Actually I dont think the TS calculation for RR is all that bad... I think it gets it pretty spot on 95% of the time.
After reading a little more of the thread I think this really needs pointing out...
This is not just Dwarfs |
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"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 13:24 |
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Leader and Chef exploit the rebate as it gives the teams RR but they are measured as having none.
It`s most prominent on dwarves, because AV9 races are slightly undervalued (IMHO) and they are the AV9 race that starts with the most skills thus needing the fewest rerolls - unless you GFI alot |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 13:49 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: | | treborius wrote: | | sk8bcn wrote: | | Ordered by win percentage (...) |
how do you do that?
(...) how do you order by win-percentage? |
click on the little percentage sign under "Games"
(...) |
thx sk8bcn, i had missed that "%"-character.
too small on my firefox-browser / laptop-screen  . |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 14:00 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | Leader and Chef exploit the rebate as it gives the teams RR but they are measured as having none.
It`s most prominent on dwarves, because AV9 races are slightly undervalued (IMHO) and they are the AV9 race that starts with the most skills thus needing the fewest rerolls - unless you GFI alot |
another thing a few races are profiting (and others are hurting) from is the actual cost of RR, it's 40K gold for Dwarf and 70K gold for Nurgle - this, of course, directly translates into TS, so 4 TS..7 TS / RR (excluding rebate) depending on the team - do you guys think that's correct? |
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mymLaban
Joined: Apr 20, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 12, 2009 - 14:10 |
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So you found a way to pick in the blackbox Good job grats |
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