odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Jan 18, 2009 - 16:16 |
 
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Well, I gotta admit. I am super lame then, since I do have a 1turner on my skaven team, whom I do use on T8 and T16 if needed, but I also have 2 DPs and a claw+rsc vermin  |
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Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
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Jan 18, 2009 - 17:16 |
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| torsoboy wrote: | | Eddy wrote: | | Except that your Thrower is not a key player like your Gutter Runner. |
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Hahaha, i love this, i'll steal that gif from you =P
EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y  |
_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou
Last edited by Eddy on %b %18, %2009 - %17:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 18, 2009 - 17:22 |
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| odi wrote: | | Well, I gotta admit. I am super lame then, since I do have a 1turner on my skaven team, whom I do use on T8 and T16 if needed, but I also have 2 DPs and a claw+rsc vermin |
Do you cage, stall and crowdsurf on top of that? |
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MSpanke
Joined: Jun 06, 2006
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Jan 18, 2009 - 17:44 |
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Stolen too...
 |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jan 18, 2009 - 17:47 |
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Ok, firstly lets get one thing straight: oneturners are actually a great strategic tool and easily work the best when employed as part of a cohesive strategy to win the game. By strategy I'm talking about your overall plan to win the game. What it dosent require is a complex grasp of tactics. Tactics being the moves you're going to use to achieve short term goals. Strategy would dictate the "I need to stall" and tactics would be the "how am I going to stall?".
The problem most people seem to have is that its tactically very easy and the reason its so powerful is that it gives you a great strategic edge. While it gives them this edge it dosent mean "insta-win"... an opponent still has the option to adapt their strategy to give themselves the best chance of victory. A big problem here is that BB players are so used to a "right" strategy that they often dont adapt well, not exactly the fault of the oneturning player.
Then theres this "oneturning is like playing by yourself" thing. Thats a whole bunch of BS, both players have 16 turns and oneturners dont change that. If you dont make them count then thats your problem.
| Eddy wrote: | | torsoboy wrote: | So, if stalling, fouling, claw/rsc, etc. are ok because they help to win games, then oneturners should be ok because they also help to win games.
I'm just pointing this out because I find folk psychology fascinating. |
They're not the same though. It is effectively not possible to defend against a one-turner, you can only hope for a failed roll.
It is always possible to defend against stalling and surfing. Fouling and Blocking (with damage skills) is closer to one-turning, but it's a core part of the game that involves player interaction, assists, etc. One-turning is kind of "play alone". |
Actually I think its very clearly identical to alot of other contraversial strategies.... as well as some less contraversial strategies.
Ok, lets look at claws. Suppose you lose the cointoss and have to face four claw/RSC blocks (including the blitz) and then one of the players who was left alive is then gangfouled. The claw-mongers then beat your team to a pulp and stall it out. To be honest this equates similarly to "play alone", if they get the dice they want then I'd like to see you effectively defend against it. Sure there might be interaction if they dont splat most of your team quickly enough but then again there might be interaction with a oneturner if they drop the ball.
Lets look at norse at 100TR. Suppose they get the right dice too, you're not going to be able to defend against that either. Sure they might not roll pow/RIP every block but if they do your defence is going to look interesting. Then again perhaps the oneturner might be thwarted by a perfect defence.
Ok, suppose you're playing against this elf and it has leap and a high move. Each drive it picks up the ball and charges for the TD line... sadly you can only watch as you roll skull after skull and it pows your ballcarrier every time. It probably wont but then again the oneturner might trip on a GFI.
I think what you meant to say was that you cant alter the odds of their success.... but even thats not true. You can change defensive formations and as I said earlier, you have 16 turns to try and deal with them. If neither of those two things alter the odds enough then either a) you deserve to lose or b) its simply too powerful a tool. If the answer was b) then say it, I dare you |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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torsoboy
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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Jan 18, 2009 - 17:52 |
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Thanks for that piece, SillySod. Time for me to lay my cards on the table, I used to think oneturners are lame too - I felt it was just common knowledge that oneturners are lame. Challenging common knowledge changed my mind about this. |
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The plural of anecdote isn't data. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jan 18, 2009 - 18:03 |
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BTW, the real question is yet to come. This really needs a sibling thread "Orcs, the lamest thing since zerg rushing?"... not yet but in a few days maybe |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 18, 2009 - 18:15 |
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FischerKing
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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Jan 18, 2009 - 21:35 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | Ok, firstly lets get one thing straight: oneturners are actually a great strategic tool and easily work the best when employed as part of a cohesive strategy to win the game. By strategy I'm talking about your overall plan to win the game. What it dosent require is a complex grasp of tactics. Tactics being the moves you're going to use to achieve short term goals. Strategy would dictate the "I need to stall" and tactics would be the "how am I going to stall?". |
I agree with your differentiation of strategical and tactical meassures, its much like the one I read in a book from a chess grandmaster.
| SillySod wrote: | The problem most people seem to have is that its tactically very easy and the reason its so powerful is that it gives you a great strategic edge. While it gives them this edge it dosent mean "insta-win"... an opponent still has the option to adapt their strategy to give themselves the best chance of victory. A big problem here is that BB players are so used to a "right" strategy that they often dont adapt well, not exactly the fault of the oneturning player.
Then theres this "oneturning is like playing by yourself" thing. Thats a whole bunch of BS, both players have 16 turns and oneturners dont change that. If you dont make them count then thats your problem.
Actually I think its very clearly identical to alot of other contraversial strategies.... as well as some less contraversial strategies.
Ok, lets look at claws. Suppose you lose the cointoss and have to face four claw/RSC blocks (including the blitz) and then one of the players who was left alive is then gangfouled. The claw-mongers then beat your team to a pulp and stall it out. To be honest this equates similarly to "play alone", if they get the dice they want then I'd like to see you effectively defend against it. Sure there might be interaction if they dont splat most of your team quickly enough but then again there might be interaction with a oneturner if they drop the ball.
Lets look at norse at 100TR. Suppose they get the right dice too, you're not going to be able to defend against that either. Sure they might not roll pow/RIP every block but if they do your defence is going to look interesting. Then again perhaps the oneturner might be thwarted by a perfect defence.
Ok, suppose you're playing against this elf and it has leap and a high move. Each drive it picks up the ball and charges for the TD line... sadly you can only watch as you roll skull after skull and it pows your ballcarrier every time. It probably wont but then again the oneturner might trip on a GFI.
I think what you meant to say was that you cant alter the odds of their success.... but even thats not true. You can change defensive formations and as I said earlier, you have 16 turns to try and deal with them. If neither of those two things alter the odds enough then either a) you deserve to lose or b) its simply too powerful a tool. If the answer was b) then say it, I dare you |
Ok, I dare to choose the b option here and btw, I think the same about double claw and massive dirty player usage, it doesnt take skills it just takes the luck to remove the other team and thats not unlikely at all with that set of skills.
Ofcourse luck can totally determine the outcome of a game, but something is more likely to happen than others. An elfteam turning you over and scoring time after time is something that can happen, but you can drastically reduce the chance of it by playing right. Securing the ball during the first turn, have a good ballcarrier build for it, cageing with guard and dont make mistakes. Its much more likely to become a battle of coaching and possitioning than it is the odd chance that the other one will finally roll a double one on his oneturning attempts and turn himself over. Same thing with a new Norse team as you mention, though norse teams of TR 100 have an adventage over most other starting teams because of their massive amount of starting skills. If he rolls with tons of luck and you dont, he will probably winn, but thats something completely different because honestly, it doesnt require a ton of luck to score with a natural oneturner.
And with your rant about defensive setups. I know alot of very good defensive setups and Im pretty confident I can give them the worst odds they will get from that. But unless they really only have 1 turn to score in, and you dont have a massive amount of diving tackle, tackle, blodge sidestep, it will most likely be an easy score. The best setup if you know he is going to oneturn (turn 16 or  is to put your players in a line were they cannot reach you with a blitz and at least make him to one 4+ dodge (ag 4) but even with that he is more likely to succeed when he has a reroll. You can make that even harder if you have 4 diving tacklers, but your team has to be pretty advanced for you to have 4 diving tacklers and your best bet is to possition your tacklers right so he at least will not have a dodge rr on his dodge roll. If it isnt the last turn of a drive, you are better of setting up close to the LoS as he otherwise just can do an easy 2 or 3 turn td because you didnt defend against that in anticipation of the oneturner, and you cannot capitalize on the odd blitz or failed pickup or catch because your players are too far away. So really, scoring with a naturall oneturner is as easy as scratching your balls, or blitz every turn with a double claw player and congratulate yourself because you coached so many nice cas and takeouts as that was your "strategy".
@ Torsoboy
Never bring a sword to a gunfight that far I follow you, and for a team thats going to play majors it can be a good thing to have a oneturner as majors are generally a drive down lameness avenue. The reason that you should not take a oneturner though, is because your coaching in general will suffer. It is very tempting to come to rely on that one player doing his trick all the time and leave the problem of offense in the hands of a few dicerolls. But how about the game were he is hit by a rock, he is accidently kod and doesnt come back or he is even killed leaving the team at the mercy of your coaching skills untill you can develope another one. You cannot make a oneturn td against every defense (and you CAN do that, no matter what people tell you. Only exception being when he has standfirm x3 or you are very low in numbers) if you dont practice it regularly, and your offensive drives in general will start to suffer if you dont do it the normal way game after game. So, really limit your use of natural oneturners. My personal rule is, that I will take double movement on a woodie catcher if I get it on a tournament team, and thats it. Would never build one with sprint and + movement. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jan 18, 2009 - 21:47 |
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| Quote: | | So really, scoring with a naturall oneturner is as easy as scratching your balls |
I can agree with that. However, winning with a oneturner is a different matter is it not?
(I dont think its -that- good but I'm not 100% sure so I was kind of hoping we'd get to argue point b) through properly) |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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fenric
Joined: Jan 02, 2008
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Jan 19, 2009 - 01:56 |
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The oft-overlooked kick skill can really help in dealing with oneturners. You can at least make your opponent throw more dice. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Jan 19, 2009 - 08:18 |
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| FischerKing wrote: | | ....as majors are generally a drive down lameness avenue. |
I thought they lived on Cheesy Street!
Hmm, I need to reprogram my Sat Nav. |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 19, 2009 - 08:41 |
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| Frankenstein wrote: | | odi wrote: | | Well, I gotta admit. I am super lame then, since I do have a 1turner on my skaven team, whom I do use on T8 and T16 if needed, but I also have 2 DPs and a claw+rsc vermin |
Do you cage, stall and crowdsurf on top of that? |
Oh Do I?
Every single time I have a chance... I rather be on the offensive with my rats than on the defensive. And I almost forgot, I keep hiring the wizzie too every time I have the extra cash |
Last edited by odi on %b %19, %2009 - %08:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 19, 2009 - 08:55 |
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I guess the biggest change for the opposition playing vs a 1turner, is that the Stall/Bash/Foul will not guarantee a 2-1 victory, unless you manage to bash the team so low on players that they get their hands on the 1turner. And that is the only thing natural 1turners are good for, making sure that you will score atleast 2 TDs in every game, one on T8 and the other one in the second half (not with the 1turner though). If I'm playing vs some claw+rsc Chaos, and they are receiving, I know they wont go for a quick TD. So I wont even put the 1turner on the field. If I can get the ball loose and score before the chaos does, I know I will most likely win, since the 1turner guarantees me a lead after the 1st half. Even though I will propably be down to 7-8 players for the next half but I can still get to a 3-1 lead.
If I cant get the ball loose, it will propably be 1-1 after the first half, I will be receiving, and scoring 2-1 with the rats in 2-3 turns isnt that hard with rats. So the opposition will have to either risk going for 2 quick TD's or try to play it safe for 2-2 draw... Which is usually the time when my wizzie hits them...
Just checked my B Div skavens games... So I do have that 1 turner there, and he has made three one Turn TD's so far, one of which won me the game, 1 tied it... One I still ended up loosing vs dwarves after tieing it to (1-1) at half time with him (didnt really have enough players for 2nd half). |
Last edited by odi on %b %19, %2009 - %10:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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xcver
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
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Jan 19, 2009 - 09:35 |
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well my one-turner won me the GLT so I guess I like him (with 4 guys on the pitch there wasn't much else to do on t16) |
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"Power without perception is virtually useless and therefore of no true value!" - Ryouken - Master of the Hokuto no Ken Martial Arts |
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