Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Dec 13, 2013 - 18:10 |
 
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| pythrr wrote: | And what would smallman do with his team if this new system were ever put in place? He'd trim them down to 800 TV and 5 skills. Then he would have a clawpomb stack AND 200 TV of inducements vs newish teams with 5 (or so) skills (as it would never be a like for like skill number match - it would have to be a range).
My point here is that any system will be gamed. |
Well, firstly he'd be paired against teams with about 5 skills. Secondly, even if he'd play against a rookie team occasionally, it would hardly be an easy walkover. Whereas he only could field 1 star without rerolls (unless he induces them at a higher than normal cost), the rookie side would be able to rely upon several positionals and rerolls against his 6 3 3 8 vanilla squad with just 1 star. I don't think that he could be bothered to go for such an inefficient minmax team and even if he did, it shouldn't be much of a problem. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Dec 13, 2013 - 18:14 |
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I think the skill thing would make everyone min-max more.
Not worth giving up a Wiz for a RR and a reserve. |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 13, 2013 - 18:18 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | I think the skill thing would make everyone min-max more.
Not worth giving up a Wiz for a RR and a reserve. |
Yet people do use substitutes and rerolls in tournaments and leagues all the time. According to your logic, one would expect they wouldn't. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Dec 13, 2013 - 18:32 |
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| Frankenstein wrote: | | JimmyFantastic wrote: | I think the skill thing would make everyone min-max more.
Not worth giving up a Wiz for a RR and a reserve. |
Yet people do use substitutes and rerolls in tournaments and leagues all the time. According to your logic, one would expect they wouldn't. |
People use them in the Box too. What is your point? |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 13, 2013 - 18:38 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Frankenstein wrote: | | JimmyFantastic wrote: | I think the skill thing would make everyone min-max more.
Not worth giving up a Wiz for a RR and a reserve. |
Yet people do use substitutes and rerolls in tournaments and leagues all the time. According to your logic, one would expect they wouldn't. |
People use them in the Box too. What is your point? |
Actually you would have to ask that question JimmyFantastic.
If people would minmax more in order to avoid a wizard, that would mean that a wizard is more valuable than 2.5 Clawpombers. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Dec 13, 2013 - 18:40 |
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That makes literally no sense. My statement makes perfect sense.
Engage brain! |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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| Posted:
Dec 13, 2013 - 19:01 |
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| Frankenstein wrote: | | pythrr wrote: | And what would smallman do with his team if this new system were ever put in place? He'd trim them down to 800 TV and 5 skills. Then he would have a clawpomb stack AND 200 TV of inducements vs newish teams with 5 (or so) skills (as it would never be a like for like skill number match - it would have to be a range).
My point here is that any system will be gamed. |
Well, firstly he'd be paired against teams with about 5 skills. Secondly, even if he'd play against a rookie team occasionally, it would hardly be an easy walkover. Whereas he only could field 1 star without rerolls (unless he induces them at a higher than normal cost), the rookie side would be able to rely upon several positionals and rerolls against his 6 3 3 8 vanilla squad with just 1 star. I don't think that he could be bothered to go for such an inefficient minmax team and even if he did, it shouldn't be much of a problem. |
a team with a clawpomb stack (c. 850 tv or so)AND a wizard plus a star/rr/2 mercs? vs a team with 5 skills and a normal roster (c. 1100 tv)? you don't see this as a problem? again, the system would encourage minmax gaming, not solve it. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Dec 13, 2013 - 19:04 |
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| Frankenstein wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | Frankenstein wrote: | | JimmyFantastic wrote: | I think the skill thing would make everyone min-max more.
Not worth giving up a Wiz for a RR and a reserve. |
Yet people do use substitutes and rerolls in tournaments and leagues all the time. According to your logic, one would expect they wouldn't. |
People use them in the Box too. What is your point? |
Actually you would have to ask that question JimmyFantastic.
If people would minmax more in order to avoid a wizard, that would mean that a wizard is more valuable than 2.5 Clawpombers. |
I read your original post again.
You seem to be making skills bad. So you are better off not taking skills. Unless they are real kick ass skills.
CPOMB appears to pack the best combined value so you would be better off running CPOMB than anything else.
Or maybe I'm missing something.
I prefered the nerf CPOMB idea.  |
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[SL] + Official Stunty teams. Progression KO. Old & new teams welcome. 29th May! |
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Calcium
Joined: Apr 08, 2007
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Dec 13, 2013 - 19:05 |
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| Frankenstein wrote: | | If people would minmax more in order to avoid a wizard, that would mean that a wizard is more valuable than 2.5 Clawpombers. |
This ridiculous statement made me wonder what kind of BB you actually play, but then I remembered watching your team bravely run away (metagaming anyone?) and get banhammered as a result. Funny how you the box needs curing yet you were every bit as much a problem as any minmaxer/clawPOMBer/DP spammer.
I'll take anything you say towards the betterment of BB with a MASSIVE pinch of salt. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Dec 13, 2013 - 19:10 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | I think the skill thing would make everyone min-max more. |
It's likely you think that anything would make people min/max more, so while it's interesting for you to state this it's nearly completely meaningless. Moreso since you don't give a reason why this would be the case for [literally] *everyone* I think we should probably just assume you're only talking about [actually] yourself.
| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Not worth giving up a Wiz for a RR and a reserve. |
A 800TV pact team with a cpomb/block/tackle and a wiz? Lol... that's hardly frightening is it? Rookie teams that don't have ag4 who have a wiz are hardly frightening. I think you may need to minmax some WEs to always get a wiz, then you might be in business. I'm also pretty sure that while people may not like that team they'd accept it more readily than the 2 legend cpomb noob hunting teams running around today.
Anyway, I don't think this skill thing is likely to pan out, so at least we have that in common. I also think that no matter what system some people will try to work the edges to get an 'unfair' or at least unintended advantage.
However, believing that doesn't mean I think the current system is good, let alone 'best'. We get that it's pretty ideal for lame cpomb spam, but no one is actually trying to take that away from anyone here.
Edit: additionally, the admins can ban teams if they so choose. You can have a system which allows such teams, with a community that does not. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Dec 13, 2013 - 19:35 |
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Work it out. I am not thinking about Cpomb at all.
Every single team will want to keep it's TV at an absolute minimum for the number of skills it has.
All the time. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Dec 13, 2013 - 19:42 |
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I fail to see how this is really any different from how it is now. You balance the value of additional rrs, you balance the value of taking full positionals, you balance the value of taking a bench, you balance the value of having multiskilled linemen, ...
Does it change those balances? Probably.
Does it make only one possible way to build? For you, maybe, but my guess is that's no different from how it is now.
Further, if you're talking about prepping teams for tournies then this all goes out the window anyway, as the only place this system is used is for generic match making. |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Dec 13, 2013 - 19:52 |
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The subway system analogy put this idea best.
The Box as it is has been going along the same way for quite some time without any changes despite protest. A change to the system in how matches are made would be a sign of progress attempting to improve the system.
imo a chage to the system is long overdue and should be made and given some time to develop. At some point in the future another change in the matchmaking should be made again (perhaps even a return to the current system if no other method is apparent).
These changes can END some of the problems inherent in the current system and will no doubt create new problems. AND THAT IS A GOOD THING.
It is a good thing because...
1- we can argue about NEW ISSUES rather than old issues
2- we can develop NEW STRATEGIES on how best to win in the Box rather than building the same cookie cutter teams
3- we can open up use of Inducements... maybe even see Morg every now and then
4- we can potentially stumble onto an ideal situation
5- we can expand Roster Diversity in the Box beyond mostly CLPOMB teams and AG4 teams to include the whole game
6- we will experience (at the very least) a temporary surge in Box activations with coaches that have left the Box returning to give the new system a go. (AND that could lead to an extended surge in the Box if more coaches enjoy their experience.)
We don't have to change a single rule... just the matchmaking
(High TV Chaos SHOULD have some CLPOMB... but min/maxing is super lame.) |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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| Posted:
Dec 13, 2013 - 19:56 |
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7-we can complain about how good it used to be before the changes! |
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Calcium
Joined: Apr 08, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 13, 2013 - 19:59 |
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| pythrr wrote: | | 7-we can complain about how good it used to be before the changes! |
Hell yeah, I need a rocking chair and a shotgun |
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