GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
 Posted:
Mar 06, 2005 - 14:12 |
 
|
| Britnoth wrote: | | Juggernaught... why? Only idiots blitz with big guys unless the situation forces it. This is another silly skill that will be 3rd or 4th on the list of skills to get. |
Now this was spoken by someone not linking puzzle pieces together.
Forget Big Guys ... my Human team has two Blitzers with this skill path for their first 3 skills: Strip Ball, Juggernaut, and Wrestle.
This allows my Human Blitzers to knock the ball lose from ANYONE (regardless of their skills) 83% of the time on a 1 dice block and 97% of the time on a two dice block. (and this without using a reroll ... with a team reroll its 97% chance of popping the ball lose with 1 dice and 99.92% of doing it one a two dice block).
Elf Ball my butt .... those 3 skills turn any Blitzer into a defensive nightmare against Wardancers, Elf Catchers, and Gutter Runners. You just need to think outside the box Britnoth.
Galak |
|
|
Grumbledook
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 06, 2005 - 14:27 |
|
|
Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 06, 2005 - 14:41 |
|
| GalakStarscraper wrote: | | Forget Big Guys ... my Human team has two Blitzers with this skill path for their first 3 skills: Strip Ball, Juggernaut, and Wrestle. |
Thats a damn stupid combination. Juggernaut and wrestle end up doing the same thing (knocking the ball loose), so juggernaut is wasted. I'm quite happy in my box thanks, maybe you should look inside once in awhile.  |
|
|
Grumbledook
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 06, 2005 - 14:50 |
|
Must admit I can't see the use in juggernaut against block dodge surehand types.
I can only assume you take it for the non sure hand guys when doing a one dice against block players, though if you rolled that and you had wrestle, you could take them down anyway |
|
|
GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 06, 2005 - 16:26 |
|
| Britnoth wrote: | | Thats a damn stupid combination. Juggernaut and wrestle end up doing the same thing (knocking the ball loose), so juggernaut is wasted. I'm quite happy in my box thanks, maybe you should look inside once in awhile. |
Wrestle cancels out Sure Hands on the one in 6 (1 dice) or 11/36 (two dice) if required and in addition sometimes it more important to down the player than strip the ball. You don't like it fine. But in the same regards there are definitely times I'd rather have my Blitzer still standing so I find the two work well together.
However ... I find it interesting how you switch the topic as you presented that Juggernaut had no worth which I was responding that with Strip Ball its a pretty good skill ... just that you didn't really respond ... just more of attacked.
Galak |
|
|
GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 06, 2005 - 16:28 |
|
| Grumbledook wrote: | Must admit I can't see the use in juggernaut against block dodge surehand types.
I can only assume you take it for the non sure hand guys when doing a one dice against block players, though if you rolled that and you had wrestle, you could take them down anyway |
True Grumble ... but then again there are a lot of times that it would be a LOT better to be standing and pop the ball loose than have both players be prone. Is it skill overlap ... yes ... just overlap that I personally find workable.
Galak |
|
|
Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 06, 2005 - 17:04 |
|
Wrestle uses the same result as juggernaut but is a general skill, while jugger is a strength skill. Wrestle can be used on a block or blitz, jugger can only be used on a blitz. How often when given the choice do you use strip ball and leave both standing instead of having both prone? Only situation I can think of is if your blitzer has diving tackle or similar and you dont want the guy to stand up and get the ball again... but still its just a 1 die block straight back at you to push away.... weird.
I made no change of subject. I said juggernaut is a low choice skill, and as you accpet wrestle does the job in a more flexible way without the need for strength access. Juggernaut is a big guy skill that will be taken after guard, pilling on, break tackle or stand firm IMO.
What the vault looks like, is a bunch of people trying to take a part of the game that works fine, and fiddling with it trying to make it 'simpler' but instead just breaking it. Traits work. They help balance the skills. Leave em alone. |
|
|
origami
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 06, 2005 - 18:14 |
|
It's ok for some skills to be the kind that you will take as your third or fourth one. It's also ok for some skills to be specialty ones that will only be useful for certain players. It adds some variety to the game and, well, you gotta take something for that fourth skill. No point in getting rid of all the skills that aren't first picks for somebody.
Now that SF is available on a normal roll, it had to be nerfed. Plus, I agree that completely risk free dodges are a bad thing. However, a team with several SF would make advancing a cage nearly impossible. Longbeards will definitely want this as a second or third skill - unless you are going for a pure killer team packed with MB/PO/DP. |
|
|
DoubleSkulls
Joined: Oct 05, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 07, 2005 - 00:34 |
|
| Captain1821 wrote: | | If you read my post again you will see that I was talking about the rules we have now when I said that. So a double is needed for both. |
The effectiveness of Guard and SS/SF is unchanged. 
The only difference is that SF no longer effects dodging - but doesn't require a double roll.
| Captain1821 wrote: | | And who will be the one that will set the breakpoint? |
Presumably the all mighty Grum and his legion of bunions will decide the matter. 
TBH I'd expect FUMBBL to run different breakpoint/step sizes - hopefully allowing tournaments to set their own parameters for genuine flexibility.
| Captain1821 wrote: | | That's your opinion. |
And Wuhan's, and gken's and a few other peoples  |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
Eucalyptus Bowl |
|
Michael_Warblade
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 07, 2005 - 01:57 |
|
Well I actually Like the Vault rules it allows some interesting Variations in team design Im thinking about wrestle/jumpup/springback elfs with probably Block/dodge/surehands recivers sure we wont hurt the opponent teams as much (very few armor rolls) but dwarves are very slow from prone so we might actually manage to break the cage and score plus the ability to add armor on a roll of 10 is useful for the weaker teams.
I will admit though that pure bashers (Claw/RSC/DP chaos) will be nerfed a little but that hardly matters to most people as they either dont have one or would be quite happier not needing one to compete in tourneys
EDIT: also i think the winnings table now ignores TV so the spiraling expenses can merely be thought of as the reduced winnings from having high TV |
|
|
Snappy_Dresser
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
|
| Posted:
Mar 07, 2005 - 06:36 |
|
| Captain1821 wrote: |
| DoubleSkulls wrote: | | Captain1821 wrote: |
Fouling rules suck.
|
LRB fouling rules are obviously broken. The risk reward ratio is well out of alignment. |
That's your opinion. |
It's the correct opinion, but you're right. He is entitled to it. |
Last edited by Snappy_Dresser on %b %07, %2005 - %06:%Mar; edited 2 times in total |
|
Snappy_Dresser
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
|
| Posted:
Mar 07, 2005 - 06:57 |
|
| Britnoth wrote: | Wrestle uses the same result as juggernaut but is a general skill, while jugger is a strength skill. Wrestle can be used on a block or blitz, jugger can only be used on a blitz. How often when given the choice do you use strip ball and leave both standing instead of having both prone? Only situation I can think of is if your blitzer has diving tackle or similar and you dont want the guy to stand up and get the ball again... but still its just a 1 die block straight back at you to push away.... weird.
I made no change of subject. I said juggernaut is a low choice skill, and as you accpet wrestle does the job in a more flexible way without the need for strength access. Juggernaut is a big guy skill that will be taken after guard, pilling on, break tackle or stand firm IMO.
What the vault looks like, is a bunch of people trying to take a part of the game that works fine, and fiddling with it trying to make it 'simpler' but instead just breaking it. Traits work. They help balance the skills. Leave em alone. |
If I may, lots of people blitz with their Big Guys (at least lots I know), particularily Skaven. One such coach has turned his Rat Ogre into a Nightmare cage breaker with the addition of this skill.
Stand Firm is Great in its vault form, the teams I find it is the most useful in are teams like Amazons (who tend to stay on their feet), now they stay standing, and aren't shunted away from your cage.
And Traits are, IMO, stupid, as they rely on one roll (not even an IG roll at that) to give overwhelming skills to the lucky few (I liked that Mutations were trimed as well).
As for the diminishing profits rule (or whatever), well, I can't comment, we play with a hard cap, and it works fine, so we're keeping it, that plus inducements (except in playoffs/tournaments) keeps the games tight and the boring blow outs relatively uncommon (hard caps do that, that's why they're good, also profit sharing is a good thing, are you listening NHL?)
As for DP, well, I will say the loss of the IGMIOY is a pity, because I liked the mechanic, but it's more than made up for by the fact that fouling is fixed, neither overwhelming, nor useless, and must always be a calculated risk. This reason alone will probably mean I will play exclusively in DivX once it shifts to vault rules. I've had too many teams taken apart by a chimp with 4 DPs lately, and I can only imagine that the only people who want to keep it are said chimps.
Overall, most of what the vault does are take out one lucky roll giving a team an overwhelming advantage (at least all the non-situational ones), there are relatively few skills that are automatic choices, and the new skills are all interesting new tools in the right situation, as are the nerfed traits.
And for the record, the only new skill I've taken is the much maligned Kick Return (which I took as my second skill), and my Orc Thrower is now a terror with it, being able to get to the ball pretty much anywhere in one turn. Meaning I only need to leave him back, and the rest of my boyz can get on with stomping stuff. |
|
|
Colin
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 07, 2005 - 11:00 |
|
I'm glad someone has spotted the value of the understated Kickoff Return skill
| DoubleSkulls wrote: | | Captain1821 wrote: | | And who will be the one that will set the breakpoint? |
Presumably the all mighty Grum and his legion of bunions will decide the matter.
TBH I'd expect FUMBBL to run different breakpoint/step sizes - hopefully allowing tournaments to set their own parameters for genuine flexibility. |
Vault Tournaments/Groups are a particularly interesting possibility - there will be a number of rules now that depend on the league commishioner - chosen or random MVP (I understand this will be left up to the commish in 1.8 onwards), allow/ban certain inducements (Stars, Wizards etc), use the cards or not (once they are released), and of course the breakpoints. They may actually be more valuable to Galak than the main DivX division.
It would also be nice to enforce the 'must have play-offs and final' rule, to give an open division such as DivX something to build up to. |
_________________
Join The Cult of Tzeentch, mutate randomly! | Hug a newb! Join the Faculty of Academy Instructors! |
|
GalakStarscraper
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 07, 2005 - 15:28 |
|
| Britnoth wrote: | Wrestle uses the same result as juggernaut but is a general skill, while jugger is a strength skill. Wrestle can be used on a block or blitz, jugger can only be used on a blitz. How often when given the choice do you use strip ball and leave both standing instead of having both prone? Only situation I can think of is if your blitzer has diving tackle or similar and you dont want the guy to stand up and get the ball again... but still its just a 1 die block straight back at you to push away.... weird.
|
Interesting argument.
Guess I'm looking more at it from the standpoint of the Blitzer doing the Blitz trying to recover the ball as well. Wrestle is only any good at knocking the ball loose. But for many fast AG 4 ball handlers (MA 8/9) ... being knocked prone and losing the ball is only a minor inconvenience toward scoring if you cannot get other folks into position.
Not arguing that Wrestle is not the better skill. You make some solid points. I just can see that there will be times where down the Blitzer and the Ball Carrier might leave your opponent with only one 2+ roll to score instead of at least two 2+ rolls to do so.
Galak |
|
|
DoubleSkulls
Joined: Oct 05, 2003
|
| Posted:
Mar 08, 2005 - 01:03 |
|
| Colin wrote: | | I'm glad someone has spotted the value of the understated Kickoff Return skill |
TBH I think Kick off return is the perfect skill for throw-ras and similar players on slow teams. The ability to get closer to the kick (esp if your opponent has kick) is vital to stopping the "backfield swarm" tactic often used by skaven etc.
| Colin wrote: | | Vault Tournaments/Groups are a particularly interesting possibility - there will be a number of rules now that depend on the league commishioner - chosen or random MVP (I understand this will be left up to the commish in 1.8 onwards), allow/ban certain inducements (Stars, Wizards etc), use the cards or not (once they are released), and of course the breakpoints. They may actually be more valuable to Galak than the main DivX division. |
I think that all sounds great and it would be fantastic if the relevant people could implement it. |
_________________
Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
Eucalyptus Bowl |
|
|
|
| |
Blood Bowl 2024 Edit...
Search
