monboesen
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Jun 22, 2006 - 23:18 |
 
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Oh and I totally agree with sk8bcn in his above post. To think any game with chances of winning differing from 50/50 to be cherry picking is ludicrous. What would be the point of being skilled at playing the game if that just meant you should seek out stronger teams.
If your CR is low and you are bad at the game then learn to play better for heavens sake. Don't expect better coaches to play down in TR/TS just because you suck. |
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Fama
Joined: Feb 09, 2005
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Jun 22, 2006 - 23:29 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: |
cherrypicking is a matter of intention, not winning chances thing. |
Damn well said. |
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xlars
Joined: May 12, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 22, 2006 - 23:33 |
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The fact that the challenging coachs team is not on the gamefinder is not always a sign off a cherry picker. I alomst never put soft my teams on the gamefinder as I says yes to very bad games if it takes to long to get a reasoneble one. Dwarf and chaos dwarf sure, they dont get any challenges anyway.
I DO cherry pick, just not always, dont we all?
-XL |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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| Fama wrote: | | sk8bcn wrote: |
cherrypicking is a matter of intention, not winning chances thing. |
Damn well said. |
Indeed, excellently made point.
As intentions are almost impossible to be certain of from the outside of the intendees skull maybe we should abandon the entire 'cherrypicking' insult altogether. |
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BiggieB
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 22, 2006 - 23:56 |
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I am a cherrypicker and at the moment my cherrypicking rating is 167! |
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torsoboy
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 22, 2006 - 23:59 |
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| PurpleChest wrote: | | Fama wrote: | | sk8bcn wrote: |
cherrypicking is a matter of intention, not winning chances thing. |
Damn well said. |
Indeed, excellently made point.
As intentions are almost impossible to be certain of from the outside of the intendees skull maybe we should abandon the entire 'cherrypicking' insult altogether. |
What about a bashy team that has a losing record, and plays exclusively elves and AV7 teams, yet challenges your skaven or whatever?
Sure you could think this is an easy win, but to me it would be most obvious that the challenger is only looking for easy casualties and nothing else. Even if I can't be certain about his intentions, I can certainly predict the outcome of that game, and it isn't interesting to me. |
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keggiemckill
Joined: Oct 07, 2004
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Jun 23, 2006 - 00:05 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: | | zerkalo wrote: | | DukeTyrion wrote: |
I see cherry picking (if it exists), as coaches who go out of their way to make unfair offers, then seem to get upset when that offer is politely refused. |
I see cherrypicking as any challenge where a coach thinks he has over 60% chance of winning the game.
So coach of 180 CR and 150-150 team challenging coach of 140 CR and 150-150 team. Surely the odds are much to 180 coaches favor. And surely he thinks he has very good chances of winning.
Even 100-80 team challenging 110-110 team can be a cherrypick. If the 110-110 team has 3 players and 8 rerolls (and the other team has 13 players and 4 rerolls), for example... Surely the other coach thinks he has very big chances of winning.
So it's not about TR/TS purely. Just about if you think it's gonna be an easy game --> cherrypick. |
ok so far, one of the stupiest idea in this thread (and since Keggie, you agree, you get that award too).
So if a non cherrypicked game is one at 50/50 ratio (if you go for a 40% chance to win game, you're opponent has a cherrypicking case).
So if nobody was cherrypicking we all would be winning 50% of our games.
If I play better than my opponent then I am a cherrypicker.
ok, if I don't want to cherrypick, I may even roll a die.
If I make a wise team developpoment I am a cherrypicker.
Non-Sense.
Really.
cherrypicking is a matter of intention, not winning chances thing.
A guy who play various matchups, fair versus various CR rated guys ISN'T a cherrypicker. And if he ends with a high CR he is a good coach.
If you believe he is a cherrypicker, you really missed something. |
Maybe I should have elaberated on this subject. I would win that award if I agreed with that comment. What I agree is with this:
| zerkalo wrote: | Clear sign of a cherrypicker:
he challenges you, and puts his team link (because he doesn't have any teams on Gamefinder!).
If they want to play games, why don't they put their teams on Gamefinder? Well because they don't want to get challenged (=cherrypicked) - they are the cherrypickers. They want to pick the easiest of the easy. |
What I gathered from this thread was that high CR coaches are cherry pickers. I agree with some of that. I think that maybe the Coaching Rating is a broken idea. I think High CR coaches pick and choose thier opponents more carefully than the average coaches. I think they dont go out on that limb that most coaches do with thier teams to keep thier rating higher. I think the CR system should be removed or atleast there shouldnt be a top ten list showing who they are. When there is alist then people compete to be on top of that list. Same as faction. It pushes people to cherry pick thier games, because winning easy games, any games for that matter bousts thier CR.
I cant speak for all. I find harder games more of a challenge. Some enjoy winning by any meens, a fun way to play. I guess I shouldnt blame them. Winning is more fun. I just find winning with a lesser team, better than beating a team that is 20 TR lower than mine. |
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keggiemckill
Joined: Oct 07, 2004
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Jun 23, 2006 - 00:14 |
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I dont think people have a 50-50 chance of winning when teams are identical. Or close in TR, I think it comes down to coaching ability, which CR should really be about. Who the best coaches are, not who can refuse the most games until they get a easy breezy cover girl game that is so swung in thier favour they walk all over thier opponents. |
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Timppis
Joined: Jun 02, 2006
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Jun 23, 2006 - 00:26 |
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This whole topic is weird...
I've never had any problems finding a game.
But then again, I play with TR 180/220 Dark Elves and have a CR of 143 
I wonder why I always get a lot of offers |
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Splatter
Joined: Aug 17, 2005
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Jun 23, 2006 - 00:29 |
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Lots of good argument in the thread but doesn't it come down to that it is hard to judge a person based on what you think of some group he should belong to?
I always try to cherrypick but Emphasy isn't always online  |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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Jun 23, 2006 - 00:32 |
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| zerkalo wrote: | Clear sign of a cherrypicker:
he challenges you, and puts his team link (because he doesn't have any teams on Gamefinder!). (blah blah blah other useless crap) |
clear sign of a coach who is only interested in killing your team, and has no plans at all of actually trying to win a game...
someone who takes multiple DP's on every team, has a 3.5 cas ratio, and a 26% win ratio(85/75/306 to be specific), and who's only intent is to kill as many people as possible, instead of actually trying to learn how to play the game, and actually win...
another sign?....someone who feels the need to use statistics to defend their crappy tactics, and pathetic attempts to retire as many teams as possible....
| zerkalo wrote: | | I see cherrypicking as any challenge where a coach thinks he has over 60% chance of winning the game. |
did you know that 72% of stastics are made up on the spot?
seriously...where do you come up with this crap?....there is no way at all that i can look at my team, and look at another and say "well i think i have a 64.58937% chance of winning this game, so i better not take it, lest i be accused of cherrypicking"....
double you...tee...eff?
seriously...people need to drop this stupid idea of cherrypicking...
it's going to happen...it's going to continue...there's no way to fix it, without forced games....deal with it....
and it'll be even nicer when you people quit chastising others, and badmouthing them because they choose to cherrypick.....
think you're getting cherrypicked?...don't like it?...DON'T TAKE THE FREAKING GAME!!
remember..it takes 2 people to cherrypick
--j |
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| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 00:39 |
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| monboesen wrote: | Oh and I totally agree with sk8bcn in his above post. To think any game with chances of winning differing from 50/50 to be cherry picking is ludicrous. What would be the point of being skilled at playing the game if that just meant you should seek out stronger teams.
If your CR is low and you are bad at the game then learn to play better for heavens sake. Don't expect better coaches to play down in TR/TS just because you suck. |
Please explain this again, slowly, from begining. Zerkalo was not talking about 51%/49% games but 60%/40% games. How is that NOT cherry picking?
| sk8bcn wrote: |
ok so far, one of the stupiest idea in this thread (and since Keggie, you agree, you get that award too).
So if a non cherrypicked game is one at 50/50 ratio (if you go for a 40% chance to win game, you're opponent has a cherrypicking case).
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I'm not putting a figure on it but yes, if your opponent thinks that they have more than a 'very good chance' of winning the match then yes, I'd consider it a cherry pick.
| sk8bcn wrote: |
So if nobody was cherrypicking we all would be winning 50% of our games.
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Hmm. Maybe. But it will never happen so we'll never know 
Really fair match ups are not so easy to figure out anyway. Especially for the less good coaches.
| sk8bcn wrote: |
If I play better than my opponent then I am a cherrypicker.
ok, if I don't want to cherrypick, I may even roll a die.
If I make a wise team developpoment I am a cherrypicker.
Non-Sense.
Really.
cherrypicking is a matter of intention, not winning chances thing.
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You're kidding Sk8.
Yes, a matter of intention. Intention a getting an easy match. 60% win % is an easy match and has gotta be a cherry.
NOT 'if you play better' but if you don't think that you need to play anywhere near your best to get the win.
Making wise decisions about your team developement may show that you are a good coach but if you use that team to beat teams that never really stood a chance then that is a cherrypick.
It's not just about CR, the Championship, building uber teams. If someone is tired or a bit drunk they may fancy an easy game. i.e. one that does not require so much brain power. Is that so wrong? It's still a cherrypick. |
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annachie
Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 01:24 |
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I like it when you list 1 or 2 teams in the game finder and people offer up games against teams you didn't list.
I freely admit to some cherry picking, of a sort. I'm trying to build a team up into something that could conceivably enter one of the main tourneys and am avoiding the hard games and trying to limit myself to sub 155CR coaches. But then I was in the low 137's when I started doing this. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 01:36 |
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| koadah wrote: |
| sk8bcn wrote: |
If I play better than my opponent then I am a cherrypicker.
ok, if I don't want to cherrypick, I may even roll a die.
If I make a wise team developpoment I am a cherrypicker.
Non-Sense.
Really.
cherrypicking is a matter of intention, not winning chances thing.
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You're kidding Sk8.
Yes, a matter of intention. Intention a getting an easy match. 60% win % is an easy match and has gotta be a cherry.
NOT 'if you play better' but if you don't think that you need to play anywhere near your best to get the win. |
This is nonsense to me. I coach humans. 80% of the times, past TR200. I suppose we all agree that humans at TR 200+ are underpowered...
Does this mean that every coach that challenges my Hellfishes is a cherrypicker? Come on. This is a game. The challenge is the cream of the coffee here. If you don't like challenges much, you can do whatever you want. Labeling people as "cherrypickers" in advance, based on a simple statistic or "general situation" is plain WRONG.
"Cherrypicker" is the most abused word here on Fumbbl. Often used instead of "powerplayer", sometimes used to put in a bad light excellent coaches, sometimes used to deny your opponent's superiority.
If I lose to orcs, I lose. I rarely say "eh, you're coaching orcs... you're supposed to win". This is a loser's thing. |
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Bacillen
Joined: Aug 03, 2005
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Jun 23, 2006 - 01:40 |
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My rule when I was bothering to play ranked was to try to always propose a game within 10 TS with no handicaps. I think the refusal of any challenge within that very narrow constraint is a cherrypick: and honestly when I was bothering with ranked such refusals occurred about 30-40% of the time with my soft teams, and more like 90% with my bashy ones.
If I apply this rule to myself can I say I have cherrypicked too ?
Yes, I admit, I turned down a dwarf team with my amazons once.
Yellow card to me...especially seeing as the only zon v dwarf game I ever played I was zons and won 5-0.
Yeh so cherrypicking exists, by that definition and in my experience it's rampant.
We fight about it like children because it has no shared definition: the subjectivity of evaluating an even game means few ever agree on what constitutes one, and so we always come back to this dumb cherrypicking argument.
I am a fan of ditching CR but I don't think it'd help against cherrypicking: I think a lot of coaches just want to win and/or get the most SPP from a game with the minimum of injuries. They don't need to look at CR to evaluate that.
Automatching does exist however: they're called tournaments. They rock. They need a little commitment, sure, and when your team gets mashed you often have to wait until the next season before you toss them and start again. But there is no cherrypicking. Sure matchups are rarely as fair as that no h'cap within 10 TS thing I used to look for on ranked, but some days you benefit from that and others you don't: and winning as an underdog is a hell of a lot of fun. |
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