FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Sep 22, 2006

Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 16:46

I don't quite understand about enforcing a rule that doesn't consider the differences between the boardgame and the online game. In boardgame there is friendly banter and talk during any ones turn. Talking does not prevent me from moving my figures or the opponent moving his. Typing in the online game however is a lot slower (not everyone is a fast typist) and you can't do it while moving your pixels. This IS a communicative game and it's one of the aspects I do enjoy most: talk and fluff around the game.

I've been playing bloodbowl (the board game) for 10+ years now and I've never had the 4 minute rule enforced on me outside a tournament situation before.

So I argument against this change, because
a) typing and reading (sometimes you have to scroll back) is a lot slower than talking in the boardgame
b) the 4 minute rule is rarely - if ever - enforced in the board game as well. So it SHOULD be an optional rule. I like it as such and would consider enforcing it in tourneys ...

koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 16:49

brownrob wrote:

This isnt aimed at sk8bcn.

I just think some people should lighten up and realise that your win % and numbers and CR mean next to nothing, far too big a deal is made of it, or am I the only one who doesnt tell my friends what win % I have, or how many TD's my catcher has? Laughing Wink and the amount of discussion so far on this and in the news topic is:
A)Pointless
B) Hilarious
C) Worrying
that people can get so wound up over something so trivial

Its Christers site, we play by his rules, like it or lump it thats the way it is, and will be. I just hope he doesnt cave into the "shouts loudest" camp

Just be grateful Christer hasnt just pulled the plug on the server or takes the site down for a week just to let people realise how silly they are being here, the amount of whinging is bordering on obscene

I think that you are not getting it Rob.

It is not about CR, win %. It's about having a bit of fun.

Many thanks to Christer and SkiJunkie for making all this possible. The outcry shows just how much people appreciate the site.

For some people this fun is being taken away. It doesn't bother me too much as I mostly play in [U] anyway but for some people [U] doesn't cut it.

I would have liked to play in a Major though. I am happy with the rule for Majors but I now have little chance to build a strong enough team.

As I noted on another thread, a bit of R & R is essential not trivial. The less leisure time you have, the more important it is.

Currently less than a quarter seem to want this on every game. Not much of a mandate.

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Optihut

Joined: Dec 16, 2004

Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 16:59

I like the 4 minute rule, but I am not overly fond of the implementation. If the "illegal procedure" approach actually is the houserule part of it as Christer has mentioned, then I guess I have to agree that the LRB4 compliant way is to enforce the turn time limit, though.

We shall see whether this takes the fun out of it, but my guess is that people are able to adapt to this change. If not, then I am petitioning for giving the Rat Ogre his AG 3 back.

PLATYPUS

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 17:04

Synn wrote:

This will be the 95% of my games. My one fear is that the other 5% of the times, there is no discretion. Look at it like this....

I have had games against Pizzamogul and Texan (2 of my favorite coaches to play against) where they have had to run REALLY quick and deal with a child (if i remember correctly... pizzamogul's kids found the joy of peeling kitchen laminate Shocked

)

Trog, another person i enjoy playing, has had to leave really quickly to handle an admin thing. So there are legitimate uses when this new feature is less than optimal.

I second that 100%. And, sorry Christer, reload is NO option. Not often is a cat on fire.

JanMattys wrote:

It's nice to see that Christer talks about reloading when he perfectly knows reloading a) creates problems more often than not and b) is not a feature mastered by noobs. Try teaching a noob how to reload (especially when you're italian, he's german, and the english of both is not perfect)... talking about quick games...

It still happens that a player (with ball), after a reload and sync, leaves the ball behind Confused

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 17:07

Optihut wrote:

I like the 4 minute rule, but I am not overly fond of the implementation. If the "illegal procedure" approach actually is the houserule part of it as Christer has mentioned, then I guess I have to agree that the LRB4 compliant way is to enforce the turn time limit, though.

We shall see whether this takes the fun out of it, but my guess is that people are able to adapt to this change. If not, then I am petitioning for giving the Rat Ogre his AG 3 back.

Why do I have to see these silly comments?
Ok, the first part is not silly and I agree, if it's LRB compliant SHOULD be there. The second part is.
Problem is that JJ didn't think of Bloodbowl as an online game, and as such he created the rules for a face-to-face environment. Using this "LRB compliant" argument in this case is rather silly, because it doesn't adapt the the medium we are using here. Is it so difficult to understand or to accept?

Is it more important to be 100% lrb or to create a 100% bb experience?
This is the question, and no, 100% LRB doesn't automatically mean 100% bb experience, when you're not sitting around a board with dice on hands, beer by your side, and a face-to-face social interaction with the opponent.

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def909

Joined: Oct 25, 2005

Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 17:12

While I think 4 minutes are more than enough for a turn, playing BB online is very different from playing it in RL. Lags, phonecalls, babies, cats on fire... others have already mentioned this. The rule might be great for tourneys, but apart from that it´s a rule that can´t be implemented here without causing lots of problems. I also don´t want to reload a game just because I or my opponent had to leave the computer for a couple of minutes. I really hope this will be gone soon.

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Forteza

Joined: Oct 27, 2006

Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 17:15

I don't quite understand about enforcing a rule that doesn't consider the differences between the boardgame and the online game. In boardgame there is friendly banter and talk during any ones turn. Talking does not prevent me from moving my figures or the opponent moving his. Typing in the online game however is a lot slower (not everyone is a fast typist) and you can't do it while moving your pixels. This IS a communicative game and it's one of the aspects I do enjoy most: talk and fluff around the game.

I've been playing bloodbowl (the board game) for 10+ years now and I've never had the 4 minute rule enforced on me outside a tournament situation before.

So I argument against this change, because
a) typing and reading (sometimes you have to scroll back) is a lot slower than talking in the boardgame
b) the 4 minute rule is rarely - if ever - enforced in the board game as well. So it SHOULD be an optional rule. I like it as such and would consider enforcing it in tourneys ...

what he said. And the problem is not going to the toilet or brewing cofee. Its the lack of chat + wife/child which you better adress if you want them to accept that you are using time on fumbbl

Skolopender

Joined: Jun 17, 2006

Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 17:17

JanMattys wrote:

Problem is that JJ didn't think of Bloodbowl as an online game, and as such he created the rules for a face-to-face environment. Using this "LRB compliant" argument in this case is rather silly, because it doesn't adapt the the medium we are using here. Is it so difficult to understand or to accept?

Is it more important to be 100% lrb or to create a 100% bb experience?
This is the question, and no, 100% LRB doesn't automatically mean 100% bb experience, when you're not sitting around a board with dice on hands, beer by your side, and a face-to-face social interaction with the opponent.

EXACTLY! I agree with JanMattys... No matter how hard we try to make it the table top version. It can't happen... We can get close. But why not aim for the best possible experience instead?

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Curro

Joined: Jun 07, 2005

Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 17:26

/me moves to unranked due to playing from work.

I just hope that many coaches do the same. That will solve the CR problem and the 4 minutes turns as well.

razta

Joined: Aug 12, 2003

Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 17:34

What most people say here that are against this is "OMG WHAT ABOUT REALLIFE I NEED TO OPEN DOOORS EVERY 5 MINS AND ITS NOT FUN TO LOOSE WHEN I HAVE TO DO THAT" basicly thats the whine i see from everyone of you that posted here.
What about us that take under 30 sec to do theire turns and chat at the same time, i can just add something here. Its not fun for us that are fast to wait for ages for random crapplayers that take AGES to move theire players. also. i DONT wanna wait for other ppl that has to take care of theire babys answer phones juggle with burning torches or whatnot during the game that _I_ also play for fun. Its a twosided game, where there is TWO persons playing it. if you wanna run off multiple times during a game maby you shouldent have sarted it at the moment you did. also think about the other player that sits at theire behind waiting for you to finnish your turn.

I had multiple games where my oppoentn took well over 10 mins for each turn and i lost i think all of them cus i just sat there watching TV pressing end turn cus i couldent be bothered about it. i really dont wanna play games over 1 hr cus thats just to long. i play on fumbbl cus its fastpaced games. loads of oppoents and you can play at any time of the day you like. if I every game i started had to sit and endure someone reselecting hes player for the 10th time without moving them more than 1 game every 100 or so id leave fumbbl straght away. cus tbh its just to long to wait for that.

Thyrreks

Joined: Sep 15, 2005

Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 17:36

I was really sceptical before your clarifications particularly about the fact that sidestep could let your opponent burn these precious minutes but you had already consider that possibility and therefor i've got only one word to say: GREAT.
No more 6 mins turn time caus' actions didn't went as expected and coaches thinking over and over in order to plan another strategy.
As you said it's included in LRB and to my opinion it can be a key factor vs some coaches.
Good Job.

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 17:36

razta wrote:

What most people say here that are against this is "OMG WHAT ABOUT REALLIFE I NEED TO OPEN DOOORS EVERY 5 MINS AND ITS NOT FUN TO LOOSE WHEN I HAVE TO DO THAT" basicly thats the whine i see from everyone of you that posted here.
What about us that take under 30 sec to do theire turns and chat at the same time, i can just add something here. Its not fun for us that are fast to wait for ages for random crapplayers that take AGES to move theire players. also. i DONT wanna wait for other ppl that has to take care of theire babys answer phones juggle with burning torches or whatnot during the game that _I_ also play for fun. Its a twosided game, where there is TWO persons playing it. if you wanna run off multiple times during a game maby you shouldent have sarted it at the moment you did. also think about the other player that sits at theire behind waiting for you to finnish your turn.

I had multiple games where my oppoentn took well over 10 mins for each turn and i lost i think all of them cus i just sat there watching TV pressing end turn cus i couldent be bothered about it. i really dont wanna play games over 1 hr cus thats just to long. i play on fumbbl cus its fastpaced games. loads of oppoents and you can play at any time of the day you like. if I every game i started had to sit and endure someone reselecting hes player for the 10th time without moving them more than 1 game every 100 or so id leave fumbbl straght away. cus tbh its just to long to wait for that.

Dude, you're not playing real BB then, cause the real BB takes MUCH more than 1 hour per match.

So your ranting is out of context as well, due to the fact that Christer wants to keep real bb as close to Fumbbl as possible.

Go get yourself some calming pills and get back. If you can play within 30 seconds, then Fumbbl is not your place, just like it's not the place of those who take 10 mins turns.

Sorry but really, get a grip on yourself.

_________________

Arcon

Joined: Mar 01, 2004

Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 17:41

I came back to my computer with the aim of posting what is written below, and find the thread locked, and a new one here. Thx Christer for giving your input, but I didn´t read all the last 4 pages (only page 1).

What I wanted to say is this:

As one of those who objected this implementation I think I did overreact to some extent.
The 4 min turn time is a rule of the game we play. It is not my game, not Christers. If it was, maybe there was no strict turn time. But we play this game, so it is ok to use this rule. The client handles it now, it get´s implemented on fumbbl. No big deal. (Besides LRB5 has the 4 min turn rule, so no matter if LRB4 or 5, we better get used to it).
Personally I need less than 4 mins a turn. As most of those do who objected the implementation together with me. And, in contrast to what I wrote before, 4 min are enough time to have some chat during the turn (most of the time).
Also, personally, I would implement a certain time for each half of the game, because I think there are turns you can play quick, and some that need longer thinking (like in a chess game with the chess clock). I prefer to think difficult situations through, and allow my opponent to do it (like how to brake the cage, how to set up for a one-turner with my MA9 or less player etc). But again, it is not my game. So, 4 min.

But what I still do not like is the fact that the client as it is now does not allow to take a break. The 4 min rule was not written into the rulebook to have non-game things (phone calls etc.) make you lose players actions or full turns. So, the client is not like a table top game.

I would be happy if there was a pause button (for reasons I pointed out in the News and in the other thread). That button could turn the screen black* and stop your own clock. It is important that this button can be activated during my turn and my opponents turn. In the latter case this would prevend my 4 min to start running even if I am not back at the computer.

With such a thing, it would be an improvement, without I am against the implementation. Because it is a matter of fact that with the client being like this is not what the situation at a board game would be, so it does not reflect what the rules were written for: "quick" turns, punish slow players, but not punish players for out-of-game interferences.

(* ok, could be abused by taking a screen shot, hitting pause, then thinking on how to perform the turn. But I do not think it will be done.)

Ash

Joined: Feb 03, 2004

Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 17:42

actualy, 4 minutes is very long... if both player take 4 minutes, the game is boring ^^
3 minutes is good... don t forget sky is doing a lot of job for us which are time consuming (like searching dice under the table, etc...) so 4 minutes is really long for sky, a lot more than for tabletop.

but still, you have some events which have nothing to do with BB... reload? well, if your opponment is willing to...
Actualy, I think the new rule is not gonna speed game, it s the opposite. It s gonna slow game because in place of doing stuff during the opponment turn, we re gonna wait at the end of our own turn, doing stuff, and then end our turn. It s a sure thing, if I have to pee, I m not gonna do it in my opponment turn anymore...

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Ash

Optihut

Joined: Dec 16, 2004

Posted: Feb 26, 2007 - 17:44

JanMattys wrote:

Why do I have to see these silly comments?
blahblahblah
argument in this case is rather silly,

If you want to debate, that's fine. If you want to start off by antoginizing me, then the debate is already over. Maybe that suggestion to act your age a couple of pages back does apply after all.