| Poll |
| Would you like this new rule? |
| Yes, it's worth a try |
|
7% |
[ 32 ] |
| No, but i would like some other way to prevent elfbowling |
|
6% |
[ 28 ] |
| I don't like elfbowling, but i don't think we can do anything about it |
|
18% |
[ 79 ] |
| Elbowling is fine |
|
66% |
[ 280 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 419 |
|
Pirog
Joined: Jul 13, 2006
|
 Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 10:47 |
 
|
| Quote: | | so essentially, by your rules, the only ones that are allowed to take part in majors are the hardcore freakshows that run gauntlets day in and day out, and those of us who enjoy playing whatever matches we feel like playing, have no business in your tourneys? |
Doesn't that feel a bit hypocritical? The majors are allready reserved for the "hardcore freakshows". Not the ones that are skilled and/or lucky enough to run gauntlets and survive, but for the "freaks" that have endless amount of playing time available and can cherry pick their way to a great team. None of you are part of the regular crowd of players, so no need to play victim 
I certainly find merit in the "everyone should have their fun" argument, but everyone doesn't share your vision of what fun is. You are in full right not to like this idea, but you are kind of being a bit too rude and patronizing against zombie. |
|
|
Chewie
Joined: Dec 13, 2006
|
| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 10:51 |
|
[09:49] <JanMattys> Elfbowling ONLY is lame and against the spirit of bb.
[09:49] <maznaz> Well i agree.
[09:49] <Chewie> aye
[09:49] <maznaz> But.
[09:49] <JanMattys> That said, no one has the right to tell me how to play.
[09:49] <JanMattys> So the thread is pointless 
[09:49] <maznaz> I don't agree with anything that restricts how people enjoy their own game.
[09:49] <maznaz> Indeed.
[09:49] <Chewie> but every elf needs recovery games from time to time
And [L] is soooo much better than [R] |
|
|
Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
|
| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 10:59 |
|
| Zombie69 wrote: | | Guys, it's a mod who suggested i make this thread. So let it be and let's see what OTHERS have to say. |
The conversation probably went like this:
Zombie69: Mod, is it ok if I start a thread beating a dead horse and making a complete fool out of myself?
Mod: Be my guest.
Zombie69: Guys, it's a mod who suggested i make this thread. |
|
|
Chiungalla
Joined: Sep 22, 2004
|
| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 11:02 |
|
Maybe one additional minor tournament with the elfbowling-restrictions would be a nice thing.
Also I don't agree with the elfbowl-haters, they are a minority big enough to be represented by a minor in my opinion.
And the elfbowlers could simply stay away from that tournament. |
|
|
Zombie69
Joined: Jul 02, 2007
|
| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 11:05 |
|
Why not all majors? The only argument presented so far by elfbowlers is "everybody should be allowed to have their fun anyway they wish". Then have all the fun you wish. But tournament = competition = serious stuff != fun. |
|
|
shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
|
| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 11:07 |
|
| Pirog wrote: | | You are in full right not to like this idea, but you are kind of being a bit too rude and patronizing against zombie. |
as opposed to the person who is trying to enforce his method of playstyle on everyone, and chastising anyone who doesn't play his way?
good to see where your priorities lie....
--j |
_________________
| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
  |
|
Zombie69
Joined: Jul 02, 2007
|
| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 11:09 |
|
| Optihut wrote: | The conversation probably went like this:
Zombie69: Mod, is it ok if I start a thread beating a dead horse and making a complete fool out of myself?
Mod: Be my guest.
Zombie69: Guys, it's a mod who suggested i make this thread. |
More like :
<Mod> why don't you make a forum thread about it?
<Zombie> Forum thread, good idea.
But do i need to point out again that ad hominem attacks are not considered good arguments? |
|
|
princevaliant
Joined: Nov 12, 2006
|
| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 11:13 |
|
| Zombie69 wrote: | | But do i need to point out again that ad hominem attacks are not considered good arguments? |
True, but if you throw enough poo at a target, eventually some of it sticks... |
|
|
Zombie69
Joined: Jul 02, 2007
|
| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 11:17 |
|
Only to the layman. The philosopher still sees the nice target under the poo! ;-p |
|
|
Laviak
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
|
| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 11:20 |
|
Zombie69, I honestly don't think that a ban on elfballing would have much (if any) affect on the teams that enter + win majors. Without looking at teams I know nothing about, I'll go through a few of my own as examples of teams that didn't elf-bowl excessively, and managed to build pretty darn well.
My faction dark elves (inactive for quite some time now) played approximately 1/3 of their games against elves (lots of elves and orcs in [F])... at their peak, they were around TR/TS = 310/280. I'm not that good a coach, and I never managed to get a faction title .. but that's hardly the point.
My amazons in the SWL (~60 games) have played against their fair share of bashy teams, and suffered their fair share of casualties ... but they have had enough cash in some seasons to hire zara + wizards repeatedly, and peaked at ~TR250 .. and that's with a team that has AV7 and played ~1/4 of their games against dwarves/chaos dwarves (with as many as 4 DPs).
Those are the only long term teams I've really had. Next best would be my woodies, with 36 games. Yes, they've played more games against elves than against other races .. but not that many more. Yes, it took them a long time to get more than 12 players on the roster .. but they have hit TR250 without me specifically trying to build them.
In fact, without really trying to pick my games, all of my teams with 30+ games (bar the treeless flings) have hit TR250. If I tried, I'm pretty sure I could build those teams further. |
_________________
We Fink Wer Orks
--------
Help save blood bowl, foul an elf today!. |
|
Longshanks
Joined: Feb 02, 2005
|
| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 11:22 |
|
I really enjoyed this thread  I can't figure out if zombie is being serious or not, but giving him the benefit of the doubt ...
In my opinion the root of the problem is your definition of competitive. You think majors should be competitive. Well they are (not that I've played in one). But according to you, for them to be competetive that have to be balanced? Did I get that right?
That's just plain wrong (in my opinion).
Look at any other high-level competition - certainly in the sporting arena. Competition by its nature is about upsetting balance - its about getting every small advantage you can over your opponent so that you can win. Whether its money, coaching, tactics, whatever. ANY competitive team will do whatever it can to get one up on their opponent (hence cherrypicking). So elfballing is a way for elves to do that. And bashers also have ways to do that. So do flings and gobbos (but its harder for them  ) . All teams maximise their advantages and try to minimise their drawbacks.
Your suggestion runs counter to the competitive spirit of a tournament - you have to be prepared to counter any team, how you do it is over to you.
Just like bashers have to sacrifice tackle etc because they might play other bashers, so to do elves have to sacrifice things like pass block in favour of skills that help them more against bashers.
Bloodbowl isn't balanced. Bloodbowl is about luck. Its flawed to try and stop elves building on their advantages just as it is flawed to stop bashers building on theirs. |
|
|
Zombie69
Joined: Jul 02, 2007
|
| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 11:25 |
|
Laviak, did your dark elves, at that point, have no perms and at least 150k in bank with a full roster? Could they have? That's the point i'm trying to make. It's possible to get that high without elfbowling, but at the cost of lots of perms and/or low treasury.
Amazons are much cheaper, so it's not surprising for them. |
|
|
Zombie69
Joined: Jul 02, 2007
|
| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 11:28 |
|
| Longshanks wrote: | | Look at any other high-level competition - certainly in the sporting arena. Competition by its nature is about upsetting balance - its about getting every small advantage you can over your opponent so that you can win. Whether its money, coaching, tactics, whatever. ANY competitive team will do whatever it can to get one up on their opponent (hence cherrypicking). So elfballing is a way for elves to do that. And bashers also have ways to do that. So do flings and gobbos (but its harder for them ) . All teams maximise their advantages and try to minimise their drawbacks. |
I totally agree that teams will do everything they can to get an advantage, even in real life. But the league will also do everything it can to promote balance, including introducing new rules. I believe that Fumbbl needs to do everything it can to promote balance, at least in the tournaments, like professional sports leagues do.
A great example i can think of is NHL hockey. At one point, the Edmonton Oilers were just too good with Gretzky et al. When both teams took a penalty and ended up playing 4 vs 4, the Oilers would almost always score. It wasn't long before the league changed the rules so that when both teams took a penalty, they kept playing 5 vs 5. They changed the rule just for one team. That rule remains in effect over 20 years later. |
Last edited by Zombie69 on %b %20, %2007 - %11:%Sep; edited 1 time in total |
|
Pirog
Joined: Jul 13, 2006
|
| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 11:30 |
|
| Quote: | as opposed to the person who is trying to enforce his method of playstyle on everyone, and chastising anyone who doesn't play his way?
good to see where your priorities lie.... |
I don't see a need to take sides. I'm just tired of people constantly getting flamed when they post threads. It's damaging to the community if people in the end will be afraid of posting because a bunch of internet thugs keeps ridiculing them and that's kind of what is happening here.
Zombie has moved from a general restriction to simply talking about the majors now, so it's no need to repeatedly shoot him down over a suggestions he is no longer pushing.
Personally I think it will be hard to do anything about this problem with the LRB4 rule set, but I do think it's a problem that the competitive division on Fumbbl is the least competitive. |
|
|
Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
|
| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 11:32 |
|
| Longshanks wrote: | That's just plain wrong (in my opinion).
Look at any other high-level competition - certainly in the sporting arena. Competition by its nature is about upsetting balance - its about getting every small advantage you can over your opponent so that you can win. |
That's very true. Just look at Takeru Kobayashi, who dips the hot dogs in water to make them soggy and essentially deep throat them, just to "eat" in excess of 50 hot dogs in 12 minutes.
Anybody with a "normal" approach to eating can't really compete there.
Changing rules to reflect more what you would like to see is not going to change that fundamental rule of competetions, people would still find ways to do so in the framework of your new rules. |
|
|
|
|
| |
Blood Bowl 2024 Edit...
Search
