xlars
Joined: May 12, 2004
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 Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 10:24 |
 
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It is pure nonsense to say taht if no one cherrypicked we would all have 50% win ratios. I have played coaches who wouldn't have won even if they coached one of Malthors uber teams.
The teams were equal, and I couldn't know he was that bad. Did that make me a cherry picker?
-XL |
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toturi
Joined: May 22, 2006
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 10:38 |
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"No thx" is half of the way of a cherrypìck,say no thx to fair or if the other coach have adventage,and ask for games with a huge adventage for u  .
I dont think we should care ONLY about TR/TS coz i think some teams arent well calculated ( f.e Chaos Dwarfts they got pretty teams with very low TS).
I ask for games nearly all coaches that around my teams in gamefinder,declining only to offer games to a few,coaches i dont like to play and teams desing that i think they are boring to play.
Not easy get a "fair" game,nearly always one team is stronger,i agree about the intention is the fact,but... ey there is a lot of things worse of a cherrypicker, like those players that hire stars,wizards,drop cash to get handicaps after agreed a match . or the hipocresy of those that are kindly when they are winning and play more "sportman" way(less unnecesary faults....) and when you are playing better and winning says " im pissed and im already losed,let me get funny doing fault each turn till match finish .
Worse when that coaches are "good players" (CR),the problem isnt the (High CR) coaches,are the (high CR) coaches that doesnt know how to lose a match.
Thats the start of cherrypickers and "im frustrated coz lose more a high % of matches,gonna make a team to destroy not to win to get some funny at least" kind of coaches
I dont complain about them,dont like it,but not complain and yes about this kind of ppl is the only time im picker coz think is boring playing them  . |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 10:41 |
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| pac wrote: | Let's go back to the best definition of cherry-picking that we have, which belongs to ...
| SkiJunkie wrote: | | I would say you are a cherry picker if you constantly issue challenges that, were the team owner's reversed, you yourself would decline. |
It has a 'do unto others' kind of neatness to it.
Note the 'constantly'. It need not be considered cherry-picking if you occasionally play uneven matches. Perhaps that was the only other team on Gamefinder in range. Perhaps there was a particular coach you wanted to play (and who wanted to play you).
It also allows for every coach's perspective and takes into consideration the whole breadth of their match selection. By this definition, it is cherry-picking for a coach running Orcs to challenge a lot of elf teams, when his own elf teams never play anything bashy. But it would not be cherry-picking for a coach running Orcs to challenge elves, when his own elves are happy to take on all-comers.
Truly, it is a definition which covers everything. In fact, I think we should all stop for a moment and thank SkiJunkie not just for his wonderful Java application, but for his astute definition of cherry-picking, by which he has made all threads like this unnecessary.  |
Is this the 'Official' Fumbbl definition of cherrypicking? Is it in the help?
I think that an official definition would help clarify some of these arguments.
Personally, I think that the definition without the 'constantly' still fits 'cherry pick'. Even if you only do it one game in fifty. The person on gamefinder does not know how often you do it. All they see is an unfair match up and an attempt to 'cherry pick'.
I think that the definition with the 'constantly' more accurately defines 'Evil power gaming cherry picker'. Which isn't quite as catchy.
I would propose that the term cherry picker be downgraded and new more insulting term be adopted for 'Evil power gaming cherry pickers'
What the new term should be is left as an exercise for the reader. |
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Sysiphos
Joined: Feb 03, 2006
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 10:48 |
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| toturi wrote: | | "No thx" is half of the way of a cherrypìck,say no thx to fair or if the other coach have adventage,and ask for games with a huge adventage for u . |
'No, thanx' is the only proper way to react to evident cherry-tries. I admit though that the border is flowing... |
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Smess
Joined: Feb 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 11:16 |
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'Nice' to see that fumbbl hasn't changed one bit since I left a couple of months ago. Then again, what was I expecting...
The problem isn't cherrypicking, the problem is the lack of people with guts on fumbbl.
Too many people avoid certain races (dwarfs, chaos dwarfs), avoid certain skills (claw, rsc, DP), avoid certain coaches (high ranked coaches, bashy coaches), or a combation of these. It's because they want to have 'fun' (in other words can't stand losing, can't stand getting their team beaten up, or the worst thing: both at the same time). Luckily, luckily there are exceptions, but they are way, way to few in numbers. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 11:20 |
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| Smess wrote: | 'Nice' to see that fumbbl hasn't changed one bit since I left a couple of months ago. Then again, what was I expecting...
The problem isn't cherrypicking, the problem is the lack of people with guts on fumbbl.
Too many people avoid certain races (dwarfs, chaos dwarfs), avoid certain skills (claw, rsc, DP), avoid certain coaches (high ranked coaches, bashy coaches), or a combation of these. It's because they want to have 'fun' (in other words can't stand losing, can't stand getting their team beaten up, or the worst thing: both at the same time). Luckily, luckily there are exceptions, but they are way, way to few in numbers. |
This is a partial and wrong way to deal with the problem.
BB is a GAME. And Guts have nothing to do with a game. I could have a very exciting challenge facing Inkaprettatori, but it's obvious that no matter if I lose or win, I'll need something like 5-6 recoveries just to get back to eleven humans. Playing 5-6 games streight with a very little chance to win and with a high chance of me standing there waiting to get beaten 3 or 4 to zero is NOT funny.
As simple as that. I don't like people who only play safe matches, but I can see their point in a way... Your generalization is just as stupid as the behaviour of those who only play elf vs elf games. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 11:35 |
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| xlars wrote: | It is pure nonsense to say taht if no one cherrypicked we would all have 50% win ratios. I have played coaches who wouldn't have won even if they coached one of Malthors uber teams.
The teams were equal, and I couldn't know he was that bad. Did that make me a cherry picker?
-XL |
I don't remember playing you!
Back to the intention again.
Did the coaches think that the game was fair when they started? If so no cherry picking.
I would say that a newer coach would be less skilled at spotting a fair/unfair matchup so be more likely to be on the wrong end.
| toturi wrote: | | "No thx" is half of the way of a cherrypìck,say no thx to fair or if the other coach have adventage,and ask for games with a huge adventage for u . |
Many coaches will say no thanks to dwarves or orcs not because of fear of losing or getting their team killed but because they don't like the style of play.
| Sysiphos wrote: | I would like to add some words to the definition of a power gamer.
Every coach can go two ways with each team... The dark path leads to a specialised team for i.e. only beating up other bashers (no need for tackle) or elf ballers only. Imho this is the true cherry picking in ranked.
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OK, I'm on the road to the darkside. I'm wearing a Raider shirt so what do you expect?
I don't see the point of loading up on tackle if the dodge teams won't play me anyway.
| Sysiphos wrote: |
3rd discussion point is the 60/40 match. I believe that within a TR/TS range no match-ups are cherrypicking as long both teams are build to play all races. The CR factor for calculating the possibility of a win for a match is wrong. Why should a high CR coach '(btw... where does high start?) not be allowed to play a lower CR coach? The CR is the result of some matches against a variete of different CR coaches with different races.
Regards
Sys |
No, no , no.
See xlars's point. I tried to do my bit in [A] with a couple of games. Even after pointing out errors, my opponents still made so many mistakes I did not have to try to win. I would not say stop high CR coaches playing low CR. CR is just a guide and an inaccurate one at that. But it does give a hint as to how good a coach may be. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 11:35 |
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| koadah wrote: | | monboesen wrote: | Oh and I totally agree with sk8bcn in his above post. To think any game with chances of winning differing from 50/50 to be cherry picking is ludicrous. What would be the point of being skilled at playing the game if that just meant you should seek out stronger teams.
If your CR is low and you are bad at the game then learn to play better for heavens sake. Don't expect better coaches to play down in TR/TS just because you suck. |
Please explain this again, slowly, from begining. Zerkalo was not talking about 51%/49% games but 60%/40% games. How is that NOT cherry picking?
| sk8bcn wrote: |
ok so far, one of the stupiest idea in this thread (and since Keggie, you agree, you get that award too).
So if a non cherrypicked game is one at 50/50 ratio (if you go for a 40% chance to win game, you're opponent has a cherrypicking case).
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I'm not putting a figure on it but yes, if your opponent thinks that they have more than a 'very good chance' of winning the match then yes, I'd consider it a cherry pick.
| sk8bcn wrote: |
So if nobody was cherrypicking we all would be winning 50% of our games.
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Hmm. Maybe. But it will never happen so we'll never know
Really fair match ups are not so easy to figure out anyway. Especially for the less good coaches.
| sk8bcn wrote: |
If I play better than my opponent then I am a cherrypicker.
ok, if I don't want to cherrypick, I may even roll a die.
If I make a wise team developpoment I am a cherrypicker.
Non-Sense.
Really.
cherrypicking is a matter of intention, not winning chances thing.
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You're kidding Sk8.
Yes, a matter of intention. Intention a getting an easy match. 60% win % is an easy match and has gotta be a cherry.
NOT 'if you play better' but if you don't think that you need to play anywhere near your best to get the win.
Making wise decisions about your team developement may show that you are a good coach but if you use that team to beat teams that never really stood a chance then that is a cherrypick.
It's not just about CR, the Championship, building uber teams. If someone is tired or a bit drunk they may fancy an easy game. i.e. one that does not require so much brain power. Is that so wrong? It's still a cherrypick. |
let's follow you logic. My CR is 175.
Suppose I create a new R team. A 150 games played CR 150 coach, I believe that, if the teams aren't mistached games (zon vs dwarfs or stronger starting races) I will win at at 75%-80% at least draw it. Ok cherrypicker then?
I look at TR 110/str 110) team (probably a kicker more, maybe a player and maybe an handicap): oh a handicap game, some luck (morley or such) and I win. His power didn't increase that much: 65-70%
Still a cherrypicker.
So I need at least to go for TR 120/str120. Some positionnals more. If he get's lucky I get beaten hardly. If not I can get a draw. I might as well find a plan (he seems to be a fouler, man mark the DP, or he seems to be a quick scoring guy then try to make him run out of rerolls). I have a tactic setted it might go in my way if it works 60-40
I am still a cherrypicker.
So I go for a game were my chance to win is if the luck goes my side. Maybe hopping that he won't get cas. A ???nice??? game were dices are the key.
crap idea whatever you believe.
When I start a game, I make a plan to make it a win, according to what I see on his team and mine. We may have teams of equal strenght, our goals are to neutralize the opponents plan while developping ours.
That's what the game should be about.
I say cherrypicking is about intention. Yes! The non-cherrypicking coach plays various opponents close from the statistical distribution of players
eg: 10% of coaches are 170+, 20% from 170 to 160 etc...
then 10% of his games are vs 170+ and so on...
(you might pick CR up, then you are a picker but not picking cherrys)
A non-cherrypicking coach should at least play with or vs some variety. Like Kfoged does with Nandorins. He might play unvaried while not beeing a cherrypicker (tough this is less classy and bias your real value. The good coaches should be able to play some agile vs bashy games).
A non-cherrypicker coach should look to teams of equal strenght in average. He might sometimes play a game where he has an advantage (e.g. he uses many diving tacklers and pass blockers versus a pass oriented team) and sometimes a challenge (he uses his zons and plays those stupid dorfs ).
That's for me what a great non-picking coach should do. |
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Sysiphos
Joined: Feb 03, 2006
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 11:42 |
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| koadah wrote: | | See xlars's point. I tried to do my bit in [A] with a couple of games. Even after pointing out errors, my opponents still made so many mistakes I did not have to try to win. I would not say stop high CR coaches playing low CR. CR is just a guide and an inaccurate one at that. But it does give a hint as to how good a coach may be. |
That´s why some high CR coaches don´t play coaches with a CR lower than x.
Regarding the tacklers... u don´t need tacklers if u are only playing versus bashy teams like orcs, dorfs or chaos. So you can pimp your team in a brutal one-sided direction. Meaning another mb or piling on rather than a tackle. And this is power gaming imho as ranked is an open environment where u should prepare your team for facing all races. |
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Sysiphos
Joined: Feb 03, 2006
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 11:48 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: | A non-cherrypicking coach should at least play with or vs some variety.
A non-cherrypicker coach should look to teams of equal strenght in average. |
I totally second this!
(Off: added sk8bcn to my still to play list) |
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nazerdemus
Joined: Nov 02, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 11:50 |
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Really i agree with the guy who said , For me to concider someone a cherrypicker It would be the people who would turn down a game that I myself would accept if offered it .
Its completly ego centric but I dont care  , Im perfectly happy to offend the cherry pickers as ill never have to play them anyway |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 12:03 |
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Problem with cherrypicking is that we use it as a category.
THERE ARE NO CHERRYPICKERS. Those who do cherrypick consistently are powergamers.
The cherrypicking is itself is something we all did once in a while. Cause we wanted a relaxing match, cause we had enough of rough games and wanted some easy challenge, cause the guy challenged us, cause he was the only one in range, cause he is a RL friend, no matter how much he sucks at bb...
We all cherrypick once in a while.
And those who do that more than 6/7 every 10 games or so are not cherrypickers but powergamers.
Cherrypicking is the act of accepting - offering a challenge we know it's not even (in our experience). We all did that.
Powergaming is achieving success (win ratio, high CR, whatever) by the constant use of cherrypicking.
Cherrypicker is an adjective for a SINGLE game choice. Trying to label coaches with an adjective indicating an action we all performed in our bb history is the big flaw in our logic, imho. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 12:15 |
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| Sysiphos wrote: | | sk8bcn wrote: | A non-cherrypicking coach should at least play with or vs some variety.
A non-cherrypicker coach should look to teams of equal strenght in average. |
I totally second this!
(Off: added sk8bcn to my still to play list) |
off topic post:
->Sys, I will look forward for you, it sure will be fun (and I know how to loose anyway, I am really not bad tempered. But I may trash talk, be ready for that )
->Smess here! great! Hope you are back for good.
->I lost vs Jan Mattys. boo to Italians. (Has nothing to do with this at all, but wanted to boo italians anyway)
->wanted to check if Koadah cherrypicked once (well under his definition of all evilness of picking a game) but forgot until writing this post :p
Besides Koadah, I think you're beeing too extreme there. Well, you diabolize players because they're picky. It's just a game, that's what I think, I won't start to hate a fellow because he don't perceive what the open format implies the same way as me.
I think we can all play as we like and we want.
Webbe wants to climb the rankings up and use CP for that? fine for me, whatever.
I want to go up in CR with risks, EVEN IF I won't reach top levels that way: fine for me
Jan don't care about CR and just want to play: fine for me too.
Of course, all this considering that R is the Open format (what it currently is). Maybe some stuff should be done to re-work or give back to the divisions their true purpose, but currently, I don't get that hate against certain types of players. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 12:53 |
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| Sysiphos wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | See xlars's point. I tried to do my bit in [A] with a couple of games. Even after pointing out errors, my opponents still made so many mistakes I did not have to try to win. I would not say stop high CR coaches playing low CR. CR is just a guide and an inaccurate one at that. But it does give a hint as to how good a coach may be. |
That´s why some high CR coaches don´t play coaches with a CR lower than x.
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Good point.
| Sysiphos wrote: |
Regarding the tacklers... u don´t need tacklers if u are only playing versus bashy teams like orcs, dorfs or chaos. So you can pimp your team in a brutal one-sided direction. Meaning another mb or piling on rather than a tackle. And this is power gaming imho as ranked is an open environment where u should prepare your team for facing all races. |
I see your point but don't agree that that makes me a powergamer.
I only have one [R] team with any skills. 3 Tackle & 2 MB (1 is the troll).
The tackles are recent additions.
It's my winningest team! -ve CAS +ve TD. I'll play speed/agility teams if they fancy it but usually they don't.
I agree that one should play varied games, but that's if you can get them.
| sk8bcn wrote: |
Something like...
Playing up TR/TS to compensate for the skill of the coach is a bad idea.
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I agree, a bad turn of luck could easily make the game very one sided, but less of a problem at higher TR. Also, I would say that the higher the TR the more coach skill would be a factor.
Surely playing the up TR game would be more fun than playing a game where you think that you have a 75-80% chance of winning. Assuming that handicaps don't wipe out your opponents advantage.
So. I have not moved. The 75% win game is still a cherry pick though not an 'Evil power gaming cherry pick' unless you do it all the time.
| JanMattys wrote: |
Something like...
Powergamer not cherry picker |
Yeah right. I'll agree to that. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2006 - 13:19 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: |
->wanted to check if Koadah cherrypicked once (well under his definition of all evilness of picking a game) but forgot until writing this post :p
Besides Koadah, I think you're beeing too extreme there. Well, you diabolize players because they're picky. It's just a game, that's what I think, I won't start to hate a fellow because he don't perceive what the open format implies the same way as me.
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Yes, my first Friday night game will usually be a wind down cherry pick
Except tonight I have to play M'kari.
diabolize ?
Oh...
Maybe not enough smileys.
Actually, I don't think even powergamers are as bad as child murderers.
I am not even saying that the single game cherry pick is bad. Just that that is what I like to call it. A cherry pick.
Evil? Maybe shouldn't have used that but I liked the sound
And yes it's just a game so don't all take it so seriously.
And yes an argument can be fun even if you don't think that what you are arguing about is really that important anyway. You never know when you might learn something new. |
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