PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
|
 Posted:
Feb 03, 2011 - 06:53 |
 
|
Over the last two days as Dallas was shut down in the ice storm I had a lot of time to spec games. I bounced around over two days and saw around 40 matches. Not all the way through but to the point when the match was basically over...I tried to watch games that involved bashers and those teams that had some claws and Pile on. Wanted to see what was going on.
So my impressions so far are these.
CLAW: Orcs are getting their butts kicked in now and the dorfs have no clue. Both of those races seem to be taking in the chin when faced with claw. It seems that those two teams are at a disadvantage now that they have never had to face this tactical situation before.
Pile On: In LRB 4 it was allways said Pile On was a wasted skill for a couple of reasons.
1: DP was a serious deterant
2: You had to select it before the block and thus you were doing it in the blind, you would not want to pile on a failed armor roll, normally, and thus it losese it advantage.
3: The prinicpal of laying a guy down on the pitch on purpose would weaken your postion on the pitch for the opponeets following turn.
SO now we are FFB and it seems that the majority, around 60-70% of coaches who have MB/PO/CL pile on regardless of the situation.
And allmost half the coaches who just haved pileon/mb or just pile on also just do it regardless.
Obviously care free and completly opposite of LRB4 thinking.
The obvious counter to laying a guy on the pitch is the threat of the foul...
Dirty Player: Were have they gone? In all those games I speced I only saw 2 DP in allmost 40 matches. It is like the skill is now forgottern either because coaches want to get some of the cool new skills or believe that the new DP rule makes it not worth it.
And I did not see one team send in the foul squad on any of the CL/DP/PO players laying on the pitch. Have we no cajones anymore?
Just some thoughts that came up when I was looking at the ice and cold out my store front window. |
_________________
Comish of the:  |
|
Baki
Joined: Nov 03, 2008
|
| Posted:
Feb 03, 2011 - 07:32 |
|
fouling is not only less effictive but also more risky now.
assuming you break the armor the chance to get sent off is ~30,5%.
the chance to get an injury with a gangfoul (100% chance to break armor) with DP Skill is only 27,8%
for the last drive in the second half fouling is a good thing because KOs will be as effective as injuries. The chance to get an injury or KO is nearly 70% (assuming 100% chance to break armor)
Here is also a table showing which modified armor value (armor of the target minus assists) is required for a better chance to get the target at least ko'd than getting your fouler sent off.
| Code: |
---------------stunty----normal----thickskull---
No skills AV7 AV5 never!
Dirty Player AV8 [6] AV8 AV6
Sneaky Git AV10 AV8 never!
DP + SG AV11 [10] AV11 AV10 |
[6] and [10] are the values for stunties |
Last edited by Baki on %b %03, %2011 - %08:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
|
Meech
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
|
| Posted:
Feb 03, 2011 - 07:47 |
|
I really think piling on needs to be fixed. With good positioning the PO player will never need to see a boot heel. |
_________________
Putting the FU in fumbbl since 9/2005 |
|
Gotte
Joined: Dec 16, 2010
|
| Posted:
Feb 03, 2011 - 08:18 |
|
I dont think fouling is as bad as baki makes it out to be. Yes it might only be 27% chance to get an injury but KO's are GOOD! And the act of fouling itself is a big deterrent, they are much less likely to use PO after the first foul. I think the big problem many team faces is that they got so many cool new skills it's hard to get a dp in there. For example with my DE team I got 4 blitzers, 2 WE, 1 runner and 4 linemen on the pitch. Of those 4 linemen 3 is linespecialists (wrestle/block + fend) and 1 is a kicker. This means that I either need to make my kicker into a fouler (130k with kick, sg and dp) or lose one of my lineexperts whenever I am on the defense. Which I might actually do. |
|
|
Baki
Joined: Nov 03, 2008
|
| Posted:
Feb 03, 2011 - 08:19 |
|
dont get me wrong, fouling is still a good tool, but very situational. Turn 1 foules now nearly never make sense. |
|
|
Ullakkomorko
Joined: Aug 10, 2008
|
| Posted:
Feb 03, 2011 - 08:24 |
|
I think many players don't take Dirty Player because it's worse than in LRB4 now. But it's still a good skill, just not as good as before.
And having a Dirty Player is a good deterrent against gratuitous use of Piling On which is usually bad for you, even taking into account the fact that the player goes prone. You have to make the opponent pay for it. Either he stops doing it or you get rid of his more expensive players, hopefully permanently. |
|
|
Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
|
| Posted:
Feb 03, 2011 - 08:32 |
|
Yes DP is still needed, and will become more prevelant the more people face said MB/PO/Claw players. It is the only way to deal with them however it will only really help whem people use PO and they are isolated which shouldnt happen ever really. As long as you get bodies round your prone player there is pretty much nothing you can do. This is where the sneaky git/dirty player combo comes in handy, you can foul without having many tackle zones round the prone player and just hope for the best safe in the knowledge that if you fail to break their armour then you will not get sent off. |
_________________
 |
|
studmandudebro
Joined: Apr 28, 2009
|
| Posted:
Feb 03, 2011 - 08:37 |
|
orcs and dwarfs deserve it, its been way to long they just beatin up on dudes not getting hurt |
|
|
Cloggy
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
|
| Posted:
Feb 03, 2011 - 09:18 |
|
| Meech wrote: | | I really think piling on needs to be fixed. With good positioning the PO player will never need to see a boot heel. |
With good positioning you hardly even need to pile on in the first place. Pitch control will always be how the good coaches win.
The point is wether the skill has become so good that one trick pony n00bs can win through it. |
_________________
Proud owner of three completed Ranked grids, sadly lacking in having a life. |
|
Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
|
| Posted:
Feb 03, 2011 - 09:23 |
|
I think Claw/MB/PO is the same as Claw/RSC/Multi-block used to be. It's dangerous, but it does encourage bad coaching. I've seen (on more than one occasion) coaches reroll a KO to get an injury, and come up with stunned, bad use of PO leaving large positional gaps, OK use of PO leaving positional gaps, coaches dragging half a team just to get that PO Blitz action in on a Big Guy, etc, etc. Just in the same way as killer Chaos sometimes used to have no plan B, well, now killer Chaos may have no plan B! I’ll bet well developed Elves are laughing all the way to the bank with this new rock n' roll.
If I find myself playing one, I tend to mark him up with shift/right click and go to work thinking about how I might try and encourage some poor use of him, in the same way you'd encourage poor use of Frenzy. If that doesn’t work, or if the situation presents itself, I think kicking his teeth in is a great move. Baki was right, Fouling is a situational tool. In most cases, if you can stun the player in question and you have a relatively mobile team, you can be off up the other side of the pitch, and that player then has big trouble getting back into the action before you've scored or had a go at the ball. If you get a KO, even better. I often think presentation of the numbers in LRB6 for Fouling is a huge, misleading red herring; many of the situations you find yourself Fouling in nowadays don’t require large odds of success for it to be the correct move. The situation we have here, the Regen team being players up, so Foul every turn anyway, anything you get is a bonus, etc, etc.
We will see MB/PO continue to be used heavily, but I think we'll see moe and more good coaches coach around it. |
|
|
Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
|
| Posted:
Feb 03, 2011 - 09:24 |
|
I would use PO to reroll stuns mostly, and not failed armor rolls ...
But I don't make much use of PO yet. |
_________________
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.
Oscar Wilde |
|
RC
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
|
| Posted:
Feb 03, 2011 - 10:12 |
|
Once you go p.o you never go back  |
_________________
"Oh, you hate your job? Why didn't you say so? There's a support group for that. It's called EVERYBODY, and they meet at the bar." |
|
DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
|
| Posted:
Feb 03, 2011 - 10:17 |
|
I only tend to use Piling On to reroll an Injury if armour has already been broken, unless it's an unusual position (for instance a last ditch block to down a catcher that broke through the lines, who has a chance of getting up and scoring) |
|
|
Mateuszzzzzz
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
|
| Posted:
Feb 03, 2011 - 11:10 |
|
If you cannot resist rerolling pushes i do not think you can resist saying no to popup on po.  Losing position or not.
What i do not really like here is multiple po/mb blocks on los (and access is on normal skills- so if you want it you will easily get this combination on multiple players). You cannot do anything to prevent those and playing half with fe 2 players down from start can be tricky. Even if you are better at positioning it can go downhill quick. But not enought expirience to say if that will be a big problem of lrb 6 matches. |
|
|
Evilo
Joined: Mar 22, 2004
|
| Posted:
Feb 03, 2011 - 11:36 |
|
Fend cancels both frenzy and piling on |
|
|
|
|
Fumbbl and Android
Search
