FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

DakaSha

Joined: Jan 09, 2011

Posted: Jan 24, 2011 - 04:33

Timlagor wrote:

Catalyst32 wrote:

In such case as you mention about retaliation...
If player A hit the Time Out button after the time was up he is only playing the game... by the rules of the game.
It was player B's fault that he was Timed Out because he played too slow by taking over 4 minutes in a game that he knows has a time limit per turn.
Player B has only HIMSELF to blame for this situation... if he had a Real Life Issue (ie game lag, dropped connection, bathroom break, cat on fire, etc...) it was his responsibility to notify his opponent.

And now Player A has only himself to blame when player B chooses to spend all his allocated time making sure he's ready for the turn after.

+1

Catalyst32

Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Posted: Jan 24, 2011 - 06:56

Dakasha... It is not a douchebag thing to do to play by the rules.

By taking time you don't need to finish your actual turn you are squandering someone else's time and life. That's pretty much a douchebag move. Should it actually take you 4 minutes to complete every turn... that's fine. But just wasting time for no good reason... other than some idiotic idea of revenge... is a douchbag move.

Timlagor... Thinking you have the right to bend the rules past the 4 minute turn limit for any reason is a douchebag move.

The game is DESIGNED around limiting the amount of time you can spend per turn so that you cannot think forever to complete the perfect turn. The game is DESIGNED so that you might perhaps make a mistake that can be exploited by your opponent or that you might miss an opportunity you would have thought of had you been given 6 minutes to think about it.

The game is DESIGNED with a 4 minute turn limit with 16 total turns so that it can be completed in set amount of time. It is not sporting or fair to take more than your allotted Time per Turn. Make a decision... move some pieces... roll the dice... stop wasting time.

AND... Clearly it is hyperbole to call 4 minutes an eternity.
It is also a very effective use of language to refer to the time you are afforded to move 11 or fewer pieces around on a small game board with a relatively limited number of actions and circumstances. It isn't exactly 40K or some other large scale battle game with numerous pieces, options, goals and objectives.

In short... there are obviously a few people on this site that have grown quite content on bending the rules in the old client who are upset that the rules in the new client have put an end to their rule bending. That pretty much sums it up.

EvolveToAnarchism

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Jan 24, 2011 - 07:38

The game was designed to be played in person. The game was designed to be played without lag. The game was designed to be played without disconnections. The game was designed to be played where you could both play and chat easily. The game was designed to be played amongst friends and other civilized people. The game was designed to be fun.

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Irgy

Joined: Feb 21, 2007

Posted: Jan 24, 2011 - 07:39

Catalyst32 wrote:

The game is DESIGNED around limiting the amount of time you can spend per turn so that you cannot think forever to complete the perfect turn. The game is DESIGNED so that you might perhaps make a mistake that can be exploited by your opponent or that you might miss an opportunity you would have thought of had you been given 6 minutes to think about it.

The game is DESIGNED with a 4 minute turn limit with 16 total turns so that it can be completed in set amount of time. It is not sporting or fair to take more than your allotted Time per Turn. Make a decision... move some pieces... roll the dice... stop wasting time.

AND... Clearly it is hyperbole to call 4 minutes an eternity.
It is also a very effective use of language to refer to the time you are afforded to move 11 or fewer pieces around on a small game board with a relatively limited number of actions and circumstances. It isn't exactly 40K or some other large scale battle game with numerous pieces, options, goals and objectives.

While it certainly could be true that the game was "designed" with the 4 minute rule in mind, I don't actually think it was. Have you talked to the game designers to make this assertion? I admit I haven't either, but my opinion is that the 4 minute rule has been sitting there un-touched since the beginning, and no rules designer has paid that much attention to it. Point me to something in the game design which you think would be different if the 4 minute rule wasn't there.

It's not a game like chess where you can gain almost unlimited advantage by thinking more moves ahead. Because of all the chance involved, and the range of options usually more varied than even the wide set of moves in chess, trying to think a long way ahead fast turns into an unresolvable mess of complications. So while you need to consider what will happen if your next roll fails, and you need to have a strategy, you don't and can't ever analyse the specifics a long way ahead. It's good to think out all of what you want to do in the turn, but generally you need to take one move at a time and react.

So if anything it's a game that's quite well designed to not need a time rule.

That's why people are right when they say 4 minutes is usually enough. The idea that people are "cheating" by thinking for longer is almost a complete contradiction with this accompanying view that 4 minutes is always enough.

The only thing people might do with a bit more time is come up with a creative play every now and then. And it's creative plays that make the game good. Why on earth do we want to turn the game into mindless click-and-move and penalise the creativity that makes it great?

Catalyst32 wrote:

In short... there are obviously a few people on this site that have grown quite content on bending the rules in the old client who are upset that the rules in the new client have put an end to their rule bending. That pretty much sums it up.

I think there's a bunch of very experienced players here who play very fast and don't like to think about what they're doing, and they want to gain whatever advantage they can get over people who'll outsmart them given time to think but aren't as familiar with the game.

Do we want this place designed for them or for new players?

Skolopender

Joined: Jun 17, 2006

Posted: Jan 24, 2011 - 08:24

EvolveToAnarchism wrote:

The game was designed to be played in person. The game was designed to be played without lag. The game was designed to be played without disconnections. The game was designed to be played where you could both play and chat easily. The game was designed to be played amongst friends and other civilized people. The game was designed to be fun.

Truths! Grandma Wendy forgot this...

Lets not do the same.

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DakaSha

Joined: Jan 09, 2011

Posted: Jan 24, 2011 - 08:29

Catalyst: Although I admittedly like the thought of the guy who presses Time Out first chance he gets having to wait for 4 mins every turn it isn't the main reason to do so. As has been explained:

When you press time out you force (or pressure rather) the guy who is slower to make sure he uses all his time every turn in order to plan ahead.

So yes: You can press time out. But if you end up having to wait then all I can say is too bad. I'm using the same rule set you are and therefore have every right to use the time allotted to me. That pretty much sums it up. both sides of this argument have the right to use both sides to this ruling. Saying otherwise is just being unreasonably biased.

Having said that: If you wouldnt press time out chances are the game will go just as fast or even faster. And (you prob don't care about this which is your right) you wouldnt look so douchey in some of our eyes. So IMO (Which I do not declare as being worth more then yours) it is sensible to just not time out the other player.

It's also just more fun to be able to talk and not be pressured :-/

edit:
As I side note: it would be nice to at least let the other player know right away.. otherwise you come across as just exploiting the fact that most players dont time out (at least without warning).. And im quite sure that wasnt intended by the game designers

Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Jan 24, 2011 - 09:04

Come on guys this is getting a little silly. The game is about fun, not winnning because you timed out your opponent. I'm sure no one can disagree with giving a few warnings if someone is consistently slow then pressing it if they continue to go over the alotted time.

A lot of people on here have families they are neglecting while they are playing and I'd imagine its not just me that gets it in the ear from the Mrs when i have been playing for too long so people should try and play quickly not just because of those reasons but it also makes the game more fun.

However pressing the time out button as soon as it appears is bad craic, there is no need for it. Communication is key here and I also think it is everyones duty on this site to make this environment a friendly, welcoming one. I don't like the thought that newcomers playing their first game could be getting timed out for taking too long on a turn while they're getting used to the client etc...

I just hope some of what I have read in this thread is just a load of hot air and that people are generally a lot kinder and more forgiving than they like to make out in the forums.

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DakaSha

Joined: Jan 09, 2011

Posted: Jan 24, 2011 - 11:40

Garion wrote:

Come on guys this is getting a little silly. The game is about fun, not winnning because you timed out your opponent. I'm sure no one can disagree with giving a few warnings if someone is consistently slow then pressing it if they continue to go over the alotted time.

A lot of people on here have families they are neglecting while they are playing and I'd imagine its not just me that gets it in the ear from the Mrs when i have been playing for too long so people should try and play quickly not just because of those reasons but it also makes the game more fun.

However pressing the time out button as soon as it appears is bad craic, there is no need for it. Communication is key here and I also think it is everyones duty on this site to make this environment a friendly, welcoming one. I don't like the thought that newcomers playing their first game could be getting timed out for taking too long on a turn while they're getting used to the client etc...

I just hope some of what I have read in this thread is just a load of hot air and that people are generally a lot kinder and more forgiving than they like to make out in the forums.

Personally I dont agree with the game being more fun when its quicker but otherwise I agree here 100%

At least let us know you dont tolerate going over the time limit. I still cant agree that its good conduct but at least it wont come across... well so douchey.. And let us use our alloted time (well not that you can do anything about it.. just as we cant do anything about you press the button when we time out Razz

)

---

[PERSON WHO TIMED ME OUT] when we played you made sure to point out that i have next to no experience with the game.. Then you took longer then anybody i have played against setting up your pieces. thats not exaggerated (which, although ironic, didnt bother me)
i had a cage and as the dumb noob that i am i completely surrounded my ball carrier and thought i was safe.. you managed to chain push me out and i was in a (for me) crazy situation.
So i took 4 mins one turn and AUTOMATICALLY ended it when i heard the bell because i dont want to make you wait if i can help it.
Next turn i took longer and managed to get the ball to safety (due to actually thinking about the turn.. and even then i made a mistake becaus i felt pressured)and the second my 4 mins were up you auto-pushed. No warning nothing..

Not nice. Legal perhaps but not nice.. and definitely not very welcoming to noobs

edit: took out name of who i was referring too.. not trying to make anybody look like an ass

t0tem

Joined: Mar 29, 2010

Posted: Jan 24, 2011 - 17:05

Garion wrote:

Come on guys this is getting a little silly. The game is about fun, not winnning because you timed out your opponent. I'm sure no one can disagree with giving a few warnings if someone is consistently slow then pressing it if they continue to go over the alotted time.

A lot of people on here have families they are neglecting while they are playing and I'd imagine its not just me that gets it in the ear from the Mrs when i have been playing for too long so people should try and play quickly not just because of those reasons but it also makes the game more fun.

However pressing the time out button as soon as it appears is bad craic, there is no need for it. Communication is key here and I also think it is everyones duty on this site to make this environment a friendly, welcoming one. I don't like the thought that newcomers playing their first game could be getting timed out for taking too long on a turn while they're getting used to the client etc...

I just hope some of what I have read in this thread is just a load of hot air and that people are generally a lot kinder and more forgiving than they like to make out in the forums.

hear, hear!

Woodstock

Joined: Dec 11, 2004

Posted: Jan 24, 2011 - 17:12

I'm wondering if people understand the reason behind the 4 minute rule, or actually any rule in any game with a time limit.

maysrill

Joined: Dec 29, 2008

Posted: Jan 24, 2011 - 17:26

Woodstock wrote:

I'm wondering if people understand the reason behind the 4 minute rule, or actually any rule in any game with a time limit.

+1
I endorse this statement.

While I see taking it easy on noobs to an extent, I've never believed coddling people teaches them anything. My first week (month?) on the site, I got my backside handed to me regularly. I kept at it though, and eventually improved (to a point, anyway).

I don't believe that I have gone over the time limit once in my two-plus years on the site, aside from an afk situation I told my opp about. Certainly never in puzzlement over what to do.

(I wonder how many people here would have their head explode trying to play "3 0" chess or faster)

t0tem

Joined: Mar 29, 2010

Posted: Jan 24, 2011 - 18:56

Woodstock wrote:

I'm wondering if people understand the reason behind the 4 minute rule, or actually any rule in any game with a time limit.

though i agree that the time-limit itself can be an important part of the game (as it is in space hulk for instance) and that this is an action game, not a crossword puzzle. i will continue to stand by my statement that if you impose the current timelimit rule strictly it will make it difficult for alot of us to play because there is no telling when a situation will demand our attention for a few minutes irl.

perhaps we should divide into two different groups: coaches who want a very strict time limit implemented and those who are a bit more lenient towards the occasional hiatus due to their situation in life.

Woodstock

Joined: Dec 11, 2004

Posted: Jan 24, 2011 - 19:06

It is indeed an action game... so wasting more then 4 minutes on a turn, takes all the action out of it. Oh, and I'm not saying it should be more stricter, more that people should stop whining about something that is in the rules and there for a reason. Let people use it how they want it.

JimmyFantastic

Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Posted: Jan 24, 2011 - 19:15

So what do people think of 3 pauses available of a minute each( with a pause longer than a minute automatically starting the next one) for emergencies etc ?

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PyrionFlax

Joined: Nov 09, 2010

Posted: Jan 24, 2011 - 19:18

I time out the moment the option is offered to me, especially if I can gain an advantage by doing so