| Poll |
| Which method do you prefer |
| Method 1:- As you were |
|
21% |
[ 32 ] |
| Method 2:- All-Comers Mayhem |
|
10% |
[ 15 ] |
| Method 3:- Best fit |
|
51% |
[ 75 ] |
| Other Method |
|
3% |
[ 5 ] |
| Cake is better than pie |
|
3% |
[ 5 ] |
| I really don't care for whatever reason, but i still like to vote for things |
|
10% |
[ 15 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 147 |
|
SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
|
 Posted:
Jul 28, 2010 - 20:44 |
 
|
| Grumbledook wrote: | | If there is a lot of "sweet spot" abuse and it is deemed a problem then a higher minimum could be adjusted. |
You didnt understand the abuse at all.
The point is that teams can be made to be significantly more powerful than their TV. The worst consequence is that you get whitewashes, these teams stomp all over most teams at their level or below. However, these teams are still at an advantage against higher level teams... they get just as many inducements as other low level teams but their basic punch ensures that they are far more competitive than other teams at their level. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
|
Grumbledook
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Jul 28, 2010 - 20:46 |
|
then you just simply increase the minimum TV difference if that happens and introduce the 150 difference only for the first 10 games per race per coach to protect newbies somewhat
the cyanide one tries to give you a match up of the same difference, this one would work randomly up to the maximum limit you specify over the default minimum
the other issue with the cyanide one is the lack of inducements so people don't want to risk playing games at a level where that could happen |
|
|
SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
|
| Posted:
Jul 28, 2010 - 20:55 |
|
You still didnt understand the problem.
Raising the minimum doesnt mean that my team would play against 150TV teams. It would mean that I occasionally had to play against TV150 teams. That doesnt exactly fill me with terror. Especially since I'll have a pretty great chance at winning those because I have a heavy hitting team and alot of inducements. Either way the system is imperfect because you'll be forcing rookie/recovering teams to undergo the same treatment... and they wont be nearly as well placed to cope with the pressure.
A well crafted TS formula would be a much neater solution.
(I'm in favour of people setting their own caps though, so much in favour that I suggested it on page 2  ) |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
|
Grumbledook
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Jul 28, 2010 - 21:05 |
|
I just threw 150 out there, in reality after talking it over that could well happen if it was that low, the mean difference would be around the 75 mark which makes little difference in reality. A higher minimum could be set if need be.
What level of difference would you say it starts to make a difference. As for beaten up teams they can take journeymen and if they are worried about getting in worse shape if drawn against a higher team they can induce some wondering apothecaries. |
|
|
SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
|
| Posted:
Jul 28, 2010 - 21:14 |
|
I wasnt refering to your proposed 150 difference, I was referring to my example TV 1100 team (I often miss a zero off) being paired off with a mid value team (e.g. TV 1500).
It doesnt matter what the minimum is... I'll always come out significantly better off than other teams of similar TV. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
|
Grumbledook
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Jul 28, 2010 - 21:20 |
|
I think that is because you are a better than average coach more than anything though?
significantly more powerful I think is overstating things, the game has always had advantages for different races at different ratings
has this been a problem before? surely with all the races and inducements every side is going to have a bogey team to deal with them? |
|
|
justagigolo
Joined: Sep 19, 2009
|
| Posted:
Jul 28, 2010 - 21:29 |
|
To clarify what Silly is trying to say. If we use the TV directly for setting up these matches, there are sweet points, in his example humans at 1500, where no matter what is done, the team has an advantage. He wants some way to prevent teams from hovering in this range creating artificially unfair matchups. i don't believe he is trying to say that the inducement system is the problem, or the matchmaking necessarily, he just wants to prevent exploitation of the TV system. |
|
|
SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
|
| Posted:
Jul 28, 2010 - 21:35 |
|
No grum, its because a fine tuned human roster at 1100TV is directly better than anything of the same level that you'd find developing in a league.
Not just humans either, they are just an example. Skaven can make some tidy low value teams. Wood elves become far more powerful as soon as they get strip ball. Orcs can block/guard spam somewhere between TV1300-1400 (iirc). Amazons are bound to have nasty options. Teams with mutations can build a blow/MB/claw monster and fire all their other skilled players.
Some of those options are more powerful than others. Some are more realistic to develop than others. The point is that they are noticably more powerful than "normal" teams.
PS, interestingly Purplegoo pointed out the opposite problem. High end teams are mostly rewarded for extra skills unless they come across a team which is virtually as good but doesnt have quite so many skills so gets a wizard instead.
(ty Mr Gigolo, thats exactly what I was trying to say) |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
|
Grumbledook
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Jul 28, 2010 - 21:54 |
|
I got the point, I'm not sure that it is a big problem, especially if those teams are going to have to face higher TV teams some of the time.
so humans, orcs, skaven, amazons and maybe some others can all have an advantage, they will still have to play each other and on occasion higher teams or other teams equipped to deal with them
mutations teams may end up facing an agile av7 team with block, dodge and fend and end up losing
the only way you are going to prevent teams min maxing to such an extreme is to specifically rule that they can do that, which would be overly complicated and rather hard to police
if certain builds become prevalent there is bound to be a team build that plays really well against them and they may end up getting dicked on a by a bigger team within the TV limits well?
The high end issue, well that I think is a nice side effect of the rules to keep team values from getting to the point where games are decided on 1 reroll 1 |
|
|
SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
|
| Posted:
Jul 28, 2010 - 22:07 |
|
I'll try to produce a TS formula for FFB sometime soonish. Perhaps it'd be better for people to try to pick holes in that than to argue if FUMBBL will suffer from one of the same curses that cyanide suffers from. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced."
Last edited by SillySod on %b %28, %2010 - %22:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
|
Grumbledook
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Jul 28, 2010 - 22:08 |
|
if you see it as a problem, how about you suggest a solution to discuss... |
|
|
Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
|
| Posted:
Jul 28, 2010 - 22:15 |
|
| Grumbledook wrote: | | if you see it as a problem, how about you suggest a solution to discuss... |
| I assume the answer is... wrote: | | A well crafted TS formula would be a much neater solution. |
I shouldn't think that's impossible, it's not like we've not improved on the rulebook before in this regard.
I assume 90% of coaches are just here to play the damned game, play to win, and then end up with whatever team they end up with, subject to the odd Saurus / BOB handoff, etc. I sure as hell don't have the time or the effort in me to pull this sort of stunt. Minmaxing and trying to max out on the formula already happens to an extent onsite, but not so much as it creates huge issues. You wait until the next TR125 Cup - some of those teams are really tragic.
This would be a problem selecting your own game defeats, of course.
Not that I think that Human team is that good. They're still only Humans, and this is still more of a conversation than real life issue piece as it is?
On a side tangent; don't dismiss top of the shop TR as just a lottery, Grum, there's a specific skill to playing at internet bloated levels. It's no worse than Rookie teams, but in the same way, isn't ideal. |
|
|
freak_in_a_frock
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Jul 28, 2010 - 22:19 |
|
Sillysod i don't get what the problem is. Parking your team at a certain level already happens in both the box and ranked. I see necro teams all the time that fire un-injured players including wolves, golems etc. just so they can stay at between 150-175 TS, this is where they are most effective. Yes it will also happen with TV, but since we have never worried about it before, why should we worry about it now? If a player wants to power game, then so be it, is it really any different to those coaches that will find the best combos (mb,claw piling on from what i hear) and repeat until bored, the same way the dp floods many teams at the moment? And once it becomes known that this is what coaches do you will find that other similar teams pop up, before you know it the only games those TV1100 humans are getting is vs other TV 1100 humans, a bit like in the box those nasty bashing teams just end up playing other nasty bashing teams.
As Grumbledook says, you have identified a problem, but what is your solution, because it sure as hell ain't TS, that i just as open to abuse as TV (don't even get me started on the over value of stats on certain players meaning that you pass over the skills just to keep TS low) |
|
|
Timlagor
Joined: Feb 13, 2009
|
| Posted:
Jul 28, 2010 - 22:21 |
|
Resarf: just because I haven't played LRB6 yet doesn't mean I don't have an interest in what happens when we have an LRB6 Box.
SillySod: If the Humans have a sweet spot at 1100 and the Amazons have one at 1250 (for example), will making them have to play each other some of the time not solve the problem? hmm probably not actually as that just means that they sit on their sweet spots and both get easy games against everyone else.
I would hope that the number of people interested in doing this on Fumbbl would be limitted however. The only other solution I can see would be to restrict Inducements or simply have a rule against squatting like this (enforced at the discretion of the admins) much like the recent rule against short-handed teams.
I think a minimum max-TV-boundary would solve most of the problems but I still like the idea of using a percentage.
At the high end can't you spend petty cash to get a Wizard anyway or is that not practical over multiple games? |
|
|
Koigokoro
Joined: Sep 29, 2005
|
| Posted:
Jul 28, 2010 - 22:24 |
|
The skill values the TV system gives aren't perfect.
Every single normal skill isn't worth 20k and every double 30k even in avarage. They are pretty close that and the system is simple and works much much better than the former Team Rating and is easier to use and count.
When you throw in THE combos and first one per team utility skills you should notice the clear difference in "real TV" and TV by rules.
The new system doesn't need to be watertight or perfect. It could just begin with not counting +stat-stat-combos and not counting the 3rd Kick on a team and Ballhandling skills on No Hands players. These are the easy thing to notice and there are some more and then some harder things. But this is just here to clear to point where TV fails.
I don't like games where I can just walk over the opponent play by myself. (Ok, I do, but anyway) |
|
|
|
|
| |
Designer's Comm...
Search
