Mightypeon
Joined: Jan 13, 2009
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 Posted:
Apr 11, 2009 - 11:59 |
 
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Well, my opinion as someone who did not pick up Lizards in the box since I assumed that it would be a bit harsh on them:
A full Lizardmen team is competetive, and will usually carry the day even against heavy bashers.
The problem is that, as soon as the Lizards are not full anymore, things begin to fall apart incredibly quickly.
When 2 Saurus are out, you only have 5 guys left to protect you 6 Skinks, if 3 are out, things beginn to totally fall apart.
Since Skinks have a ridiculously high team score (a Skink with 2 Skills is worth more than a Saurus with 2 Skills, assuming neither Saurus Skill happens to be Break Tackle), it means that even a much weakened Lizard team will not get games in which they can do anything akin to recover. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Apr 11, 2009 - 20:11 |
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| Mnemon wrote: | I've just brought a lizardmen team in [B] that was down to 6 players for some matches back to 11. And all but one Saurus has Block. Rebuilding IS possible. As long as you accept that you'll lose some while you are at it.
-Mnemon |
I think that was his point - you'll lose some games while you attempt to recover.
I'm not really enough of a lizzie player to say for sure but I suspect they're very good if you're prepared to drop the team and start afresh when the going gets tough  |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Kondor
Joined: Apr 04, 2008
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Apr 11, 2009 - 20:18 |
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Well, I don't remember who said it but I think it holds even more true in the box. If you have a skink that skills a third time without a stat increase or double,fire it and get a rookie. You need to cut TS until the saurus can keep up. If you don't you are just inviting a horrible match up against a heavy hitting team. |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Apr 12, 2009 - 17:46 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | I think that was his point - you'll lose some games while you attempt to recover |
But that'll be the case with any team. Some a little more than others, but still. Have Khemri lose three developed mummies and they'll struggle. See Chaos (again developed) lose three CW and they'll have a hard time rebuilding. Have Orcs lose three of their developed Blitzer in the same match ... and it goes on.
I'd expect _every_ [B] team that sticks in for the long haul to experience these problems, just by the randomness included in the game. At some point dice will turn against you real bad.
So, yes, it may hit Lizards a little harder. But that's where the comment you replied to comes in - it's harder to recover, but certainly not impossible.
Lizardmen as a team are, as I said above, a tier B team. Not the best choice if you want to play min/max in terms of winning but certainly able to hold their own. I still have a decent result with my team, I think, given I played without Skinks for several matches.
-Mnemon |
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Molt
Joined: Aug 04, 2003
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Jun 05, 2009 - 17:33 |
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why did you do that? To boost the skills on the Saurii, money woes, or just for a laugh? |
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Molt
Joined: Aug 04, 2003
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Jun 05, 2009 - 18:58 |
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on a similar note what do you think is the absolute perfect TS for a lizard team? 3 skills per saurus?
Or is the optimum point as early as when all the saurii have block? |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 05, 2009 - 19:24 |
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I lost all my skinks and was busy rebuying saurii. Pretty much the situation they are in again, now .
Not looking at TS - but a good lizardmen team needs at least one or two break tackle sauri and two with tackle. Also - Block on all of them to reduce re-roll needs. I also feel that two side step/diving tackle skinks are essential as a minimum, but well - there's better advice from better coaches out there. Search for lizardmen in the tactics forum on that end.
-Mnemon |
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Lill-Leif
Joined: Nov 17, 2005
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Jun 05, 2009 - 19:58 |
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Have anyone tried to develop their lizardteam in a more bashy way? Would block/guard as first skill on every saurus make them more competitive in [B]? And then as a third skill a good mix of MB, BT and tackle. But then perhaps the TS would be too high, I don't know.. |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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Jun 05, 2009 - 20:04 |
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| Mnemon wrote: | I lost all my skinks and was busy rebuying saurii. Pretty much the situation they are in again, now .
Not looking at TS - but a good lizardmen team needs at least one or two break tackle sauri and two with tackle. Also - Block on all of them to reduce re-roll needs. I also feel that two side step/diving tackle skinks are essential as a minimum, but well - there's better advice from better coaches out there. Search for lizardmen in the tactics forum on that end.
-Mnemon |
Wow, just had a look at your team. You have taken 14 deaths against only 11 BH's. Did you get a little too friendly with Nuffle's Daughter or something? |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 05, 2009 - 20:07 |
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There are people that start out their sauri with MB. Works, but I find the tactic of man marking your sauri with cheap players and hunting unprotected skinks to be too good if you do not go down the break tackle route. You need some sauri to be mobile. At least potentially. But yes - a mixture is important.
Also - many don't keep their skinks after the third skill if there is no double/stat increase. Thing with lizards is - you need a balanced team, skill wise, with Sauri and skinks on equal footing. Or the sauri with slightly more spp. Biggest risk is to let your skinks run away spp wise. You will not be able to compete at higher TR/TS if your Sauri aren't up to it.
@Duke - also 15 SI's in the mix.
That is - over 19 matches 29 injuries of SI or worse category and 40 against, total. But then ... see cusi's advice to newbies from 2004. |
Last edited by Mnemon on %b %05, %2009 - %20:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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Molt
Joined: Aug 04, 2003
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Jun 05, 2009 - 20:08 |
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| Loew wrote: | 3 dead sauri are never irrelevant to a lizard team
- sauri are a nightmare to skill, sauri without skills are almost not worth their money
- missing sauri == more hits on skinks == more players out soon == road to hell starts here
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should you horde money then as a lizardman coach - and if so how much? The scheduler doesn't use TR just TS right? If you have big reserves and you eg lose 3-4 players in a game you can replace them all immediately
For that matter what do you guys think is the optimum number of players to keep on your roster? 12 or 13? anymore and surely you suffer from too high TS right? |
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Mnemon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 05, 2009 - 20:14 |
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Loads of money = Loads of TR vs. TS. Means giving away handicaps. Re: optimal team. Depends. Skinks die so quick that a large bench is useful - you'll need to train replacement all the time. |
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Lomack
Joined: Jun 25, 2008
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Jun 05, 2009 - 20:35 |
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the box is how bloodbowl was menat to be played! - the two lizard teams you mentioned had winning records - so I dont see that makes lizards especially uncompetitive!
Dropping teams and starting afresh as frequent policy each time things go slightly sub-optimal is cheating to me! |
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clarkin
Joined: Oct 15, 2007
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Jun 09, 2009 - 14:13 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | So I think that Lizzies are one of the tougher races to play in the box. This could be helped, by modifying the stunty skill, so that it lowers the threshold, from which on TS increase is halved from 12 to 7. That way skinks with one or two skills aren`t that horrible overpriced in TS anymore. |
That applies to goblins too, definitely. SS/DT gobbos are horribly overpriced in TS compared to rookies (over triple the value). Might be a good TS tweak. |
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Ansbach
Joined: Jul 12, 2004
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Jun 29, 2009 - 08:03 |
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| Plorg wrote: | | http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=teams&nav=10&race=10 |
When you sort by win% to the OP's point it's not very impressive.
Took a look at all races sorted by win %:
There are only 5 Lizardman teams in the Top 200. |
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