Tinkywinky
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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 Posted:
Feb 26, 2006 - 07:00 |
 
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| SolomonKane wrote: |
What teams would you consider fouling to be essential, besides Khemri? Flings and Gobbos? Vamps? Chaos/Nurgle? None? |
Norse most of all I would say. They have cheap reserves and are pretty much forced to play a bashy game that they can not win in a straight up AV vs AV battle. |
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Flynn
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 26, 2006 - 07:00 |
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1) In a match in which a team begins the match outnumbered (due to injuries), is fouling a good idea to attempt to even the odds?
2) If yes, how do you make it effective, especially in the event your players are going to get sent off? Should you not worry about getting sent off since you're probably going to get hammered anyway? Should you allow the opponent to score so you can keep your players together to both protect themselves and take more opposing players off the pitch before the score?
3) With teams where fouling is often essential (Khemri, Dwarves, etc.), is it worthwhile to foul every turn? Is there some point you should stop fouling if you've been getting sent off but are failing to break opposing armor/score casualties?
4) Should some teams avoid fouling simply because, due to their overall AV count, they can't really afford a fouling war? Or are those the teams that should be fouling the most?
okay, so let me start by saying that some people think of me as a fouler or a foul every turn type of player
i can be but i usually foul that much for fun because i dont think its a very sound strategy for winning a game
but, i do foul when it will help me win, or for fun when playing a friend, and i do have some experience in when fouling is a good idea and when its less than effective, so let me try to answer your questions.
1) it can be a good idea to foul to try to even the odds if you are short players, but always make sure you are more likely to take their player off the pitch than yours. If you can auto break armor by getting enough assists, you still have less than a 50% chance of removing a player from the field without dp. Therefore unless you have dirty player you are more likely to get sent off than the opposing player if the eye is on your team. This means that a gang foul is still a good idea when its 1/6, but without dp its not very good at 3/6. With dp you are still only marginally more likely to remove an opponent than yourself with a auto break foul when the eye is on you. Therefore if you decide to foul in that situation make sure the player fouled is more valuable than the dp so you stand to lose less than your opponent. The bare bones of it is this. Only foul when the numbers make it more likely to get a player off than get sent off, and when thats not true fouling isnt worth it. this answers both questions one and two i suppose
3) no race needs to foul to win, there are some rosters that support heavier fouling more than others, but dwarves especially arent one of those. khemri are however, even though they are a terrible idea and shouldnt be official (but im not here to argue that point)
4) these teams should foul more because most of these teams have less access to mighty blow and guard and other very valuable strength skills that are neccessary if you want to win through the blocking game. these teams need a way to even the score if the opponent starts getting good block dice. these are the teams that should foul the most. and also, these teams tend to be faster and more agile, so if it turns into a fouling war when it gets down to 6 on 6 or something like that these teams can find the ball and mop up the other team on the score board.
thats my 2 cents |
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macike
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 26, 2006 - 09:17 |
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| SolomonKane wrote: | My experience with lizards, though, is that they really don't play the bashy (and fouling) game as well as they play the score-in-two-or-three-turns game. Maybe I just don't know what I'm doing yet.
[...]
What teams would you consider fouling to be essential, besides Khemri? Flings and Gobbos? Vamps? Chaos/Nurgle? None? |
IMHO lizards are not a bashy team. However if well played and not approached with care can wreck the opponent team.
IMHO fouling is NEVER essential. My opinion could be somehow biased as I was coaching human and helfs only. I suspect that fouling can be part of flings and gobbos play strategy against 'not stunty' races. Chaos, Khemri, Undead - why should they foul? IMHO for these (as well as for any other) races positioning not fouling is essential. |
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eyeslikethunder
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 26, 2006 - 10:37 |
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fouling can be used tacticaly if fallen player is in the way or where you want to put your pocket so foul him him to get him out the way or stop him getting up |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 26, 2006 - 10:58 |
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I don't foul, but thanks God I don't consider fouling a taboo, so this is what I think:
Assuming the FACT that DP is broken and all teams (regardless the races) are more powerful with a DP than without it, here is a list of those teams I think will increase their winning chances a whole lot by having one or more.
These races need to foul: Khemri, Norse and Stunties.
Khemri: I can't see a winning khemri team without at least 2 DPs on skeletons, tbh. In the "single game" environment a Khemri team is just too little proficient with the ball not to gain advantage by any means. 4 MB Mummies are not enough, since each one can be tied with a single opposing lino.
Norse: Norse are a strange team: their greatest strenght is to be an impact team from the very start, but AV7 is a nightmare for a team with low MA and the need to stay in contact with opponent. So a couple DPs (on linos) can work wonders to gain that crucial numerical advantage and suffer less blocks in return.
Stunties (Flings and Gobbos): come on, you can have 16 players in your roster easily, and you can't hurt the opponent for your life, if not using your boots. So... well, use them!
***
There's only one more team I think can be good with DPs, and that's Woodies. Reasons include:
a) Their super movement and super mobility make them excellent assisters and gangfoulers.
b) Woodies are the race suffering less from a player off the pitch. You can *easily* score with 7-8 woodies on the pitch, so a DP lino out is not a big deal for your scoring chances.
c) Woodies are going to die. Sooner or later, your players will be off the pitch. So you need every single weapon capable of sending off in the early turns that MB/tackle guy who's going to blitz you 16 times. |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 26, 2006 - 11:05 |
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| Flynn wrote: | Q: Should some teams avoid fouling simply because, due to their overall AV count, they can't really afford a fouling war? Or are those the teams that should be fouling the most?
A: these teams should foul more because most of these teams have less access to mighty blow and guard and other very valuable strength skills that are neccessary if you want to win through the blocking game. these teams need a way to even the score if the opponent starts getting good block dice. these are the teams that should foul the most. and also, these teams tend to be faster and more agile, so if it turns into a fouling war when it gets down to 6 on 6 or something like that these teams can find the ball and mop up the other team on the score board. |
I pretty much agree with the first few questions, but this is silly. If you're facing off to a hard hitter team with a DP, it may pay off to foul the hardest hitters to prevent more casualties. However, every time you foul you are presenting the opposing DP with an extended Licence To Kill. For every player you get off the pitch via a foul, expect to lose one yourself - this in addition to the extra cas you take due to your lower AV and lack of strength skills. So rather than 6 v 6 it'll be 7 vs 3 or similar.
If you foul with a soft team, you make damn sure that doing so is worth the retaliatory foul. So only foul the really nasty guys. |
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Last edited by Mezir on %b %26, %2006 - %11:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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torsoboy
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 26, 2006 - 11:14 |
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1) In a match in which a team begins the match outnumbered (due to injuries), is fouling a good idea to attempt to even the odds?
It is certainly a good idea to foul any player that could stretch the number difference even further. Claw/RSC players, or even Tackle/MB players come to mind. Generally, anything with MB or worse is likely to be harmful towards your team and should be fouled, if possible.
2) If yes, how do you make it effective, especially in the event your players are going to get sent off? Should you not worry about getting sent off since you're probably going to get hammered anyway? Should you allow the opponent to score so you can keep your players together to both protect themselves and take more opposing players off the pitch before the score?
If you don't do non-sensical fouls, that is, you've chosen your target carefully, then I don't see the point of fouling while the eye is on you. You are very likely to remove that player you're targeting, provided you use enough assists. I rarely foul with the eye on me, unless I have another DP on the bench. Your last question does not make sense to me. Your players should be protecting each other always, even after kickoff.
3) With teams where fouling is often essential (Khemri, Dwarves, etc.), is it worthwhile to foul every turn? Is there some point you should stop fouling if you've been getting sent off but are failing to break opposing armor/score casualties?
I suppose it is very easy for Khemri to never stop fouling, because those skeletons are so cheap. It's your call, when to stop fouling really. There's an article on fouling on the specialist game site that deals with the economics of fouling vs sent offs. It's probably a good read and deals with this question.
4) Should some teams avoid fouling simply because, due to their overall AV count, they can't really afford a fouling war? Or are those the teams that should be fouling the most?
It's already been said, but Lizardmen make very poor foulers, imo. I would also mention that dorfs can avoid fouling, because they really need to outbash the opposition and in many cases, DP is the only thing that can hurt them. Leave the eye on the opponent and pray for MB to work. |
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macike
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 26, 2006 - 12:15 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | | Khemri: [...]4 MB Mummies are not enough, since each one can be tied with a single opposing lino. |
Mummies can easily break such a pin with their ST5 so it would require engaging two pinners and one of them with ST less then 4 will be target of the block next turn.
So I imagine that they need someone to pick up the ball and be protected in his rush.
| JanMattys wrote: | | Norse: [...]AV7 is a nightmare for a team with low MA and the need to stay in contact with opponent. So a couple DPs (on linos) can work wonders |
I think that in a long run I could share your point of view as I regard AV7 races as 'stunty' when they play against 'bashy' ones. So the same goes for woodies you mentioned later.
| JanMattys wrote: | | Stunties (Flings and Gobbos): come on, you can have 16 players in your roster easily, and you can't hurt the opponent for your life, if not using your boots. |
The stunties without DPs may play among each other. If they want to play other races they definitely need their boots or... chainsaw.  |
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Hold him, thrill him, kick him, kill him!!! |
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Plorg
Joined: May 08, 2005
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Feb 26, 2006 - 12:53 |
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Voorn
Joined: Nov 23, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 26, 2006 - 15:15 |
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Fouling at strategic times is a good idea. It is a part of the game and is a usefull tool to help you win games. The only time peoplke really have trouble with it is when it is abused beyond what it is intended for. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 26, 2006 - 15:38 |
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| Voorn wrote: | | Fouling at strategic times is a good idea. It is a part of the game and is a usefull tool to help you win games. The only time peoplke really have trouble with it is when it is abused beyond what it is intended for. |
Just like everything else: stalling, using oneturners, developing claw/rsc guys, etc etc etc... |
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Zaghrog
Joined: Dec 09, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 26, 2006 - 16:33 |
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I think that a team that might essentially need fouling is a beginner norse team. Their AV is only 7, so they are likely to get beat up and off the field with str 4 blockers, which are present in most bashy teams (well, dwarfs for example dont have them, though they are quite a bashy team). The norse only get an advantage in blocking if they have a big guy or when they have superior numbers on the pitch allowing them to have lots of assists, having block just keeps them from getting knocked prone so often (this is what I have to tell to my friends, who say that norse teams are bashy, which is simply not true). Norse teams are not too slow, but they need to decrease the numper of players their opponent has on the pitch in order to score, since MA 6 doesnt really help them outrun the blitzers. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 26, 2006 - 16:57 |
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| Zaghrog wrote: | | I think that a team that might essentially need fouling is a beginner norse team. Their AV is only 7, so they are likely to get beat up and off the field with str 4 blockers, which are present in most bashy teams (well, dwarfs for example dont have them, though they are quite a bashy team). The norse only get an advantage in blocking if they have a big guy or when they have superior numbers on the pitch allowing them to have lots of assists, having block just keeps them from getting knocked prone so often (this is what I have to tell to my friends, who say that norse teams are bashy, which is simply not true). Norse teams are not too slow, but they need to decrease the numper of players their opponent has on the pitch in order to score, since MA 6 doesnt really help them outrun the blitzers. |
I don't agree.
1- Fouling without DP is not very effective, and rookie norse don't have DPs.
2- Norse at TR100 can outbash almost everything, and most ST4 players will have troubles blocking a single norse lino, cause there is quite a chance of turnover.
3- It's developed Norse who need to foul, cause beginner Norse teams are very powerful, but their effectiveness decrease when their TR goes up.
A TR200 Norse needs to foul much more than a TR 100 one. |
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Hoodeddwarf
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 26, 2006 - 17:03 |
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| JanMattys wrote: |
2- Norse at TR100 can outbash almost everything, and most ST4 players will have troubles blocking a single norse lino, cause there is quite a chance of turnover.
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I agree with you on the first point but St4 players blocking won't cause a turnover any more against norse than anyone else. There'll end up on the rears on a Skull/Pow against anyone. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Feb 26, 2006 - 17:19 |
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| Hoodeddwarf wrote: | | JanMattys wrote: |
2- Norse at TR100 can outbash almost everything, and most ST4 players will have troubles blocking a single norse lino, cause there is quite a chance of turnover.
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I agree with you on the first point but St4 players blocking won't cause a turnover any more against norse than anyone else. There'll end up on the rears on a Skull/Pow against anyone. |
Indeed. That's why good Orc coaches are very careful with BoBs in the early stages. Plus, against norse, turnovers leave your player standing. Plus, rookie norse can try one-die blocks with one assist (1 chance to be knocked down, and 3 chances to knock down opponent).
Norse are good bashers at tr100. Probably the second best. The first is dorfs. |
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