PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Feb 07, 2011 - 20:13 |
 
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Well I would say that guard/might blow are the same regardless of Box or Ranked, besides block if you dont have it...You take those first on your Bash team...The dynamic of Claw and pile on is new and yes I would suspect coaches will take that now to make the trifecta of death and push tackle farther down the list. BUT tackle will appear later for the bash teams in the Box and slowly counter the blodge. It is rare anyway outside of dwarfs to have more than lets say 5 tackle on a team to begin with. So I dont think that will change even with the new rules.
Also the Ranked dynamic at high TV/TR is still present...A High TV bash team that has 5 players with CL/PO/MB will proabally find it difficult to find matches against non bash teams. So in theory Box and Ranked have the same dynamic at work. A lot of coaches build their team with the future in mind. IF you feel you will only face bash teams at high TV you build for that, regardless of box or ranked...A well rounded team of various skills is nice to look at but sometimes you start to run into matches were that variety of skills is actually holding you back when it comes to winning. Some time going to the extreme spectrums of Bash or Ball is the way to go.
Example of going to a bash extreme in the Box: Your first 4 skills are Guard/MB/PO/CL(if possible). So your first 4 or 5 skills are all bash..BUT once you hit 51+ or 76+ you will start seeing tackle. And with out ageing and the CAS count is climbing fast with the trifecta of death, it is not hard to get that nasty Chaos Warrior to 76+ now. But in that example what skill will be the one that has to give to block on a CW? I would suspect most CW if you have 4 of them skilled up to 76+ would have 2 with claw and 2 with tackle.
And if the extreme builds at high TV are common, then the baller teams will have to counter with going to the extreme end of balling to the max. A lot more leap, fend and jump up. It would seem for ballers taking guard on doubles maybe is not the proper choice anymore. Why get skills to stand and fight when you will allways be out gunned to begin with. You cant roll enough doubles to make the guard war even close to parity, so conceed that to the bashers and ramp up your other skills that increase your mobility/swarm the ball defense. With wrestle and strip ball cages are very easy now to "pop" that ball out if you have leap. And leap now will be alot more common I think, before it was very limited to a few select postional players...but now when that ag4 lino hits 31+ or 51+ leap is a viable skill to have now.
The perfectly rounded out team that has all its bases covered is a dream team to begin with. We all strive to have the "perfect" team but the CAS take its toll and you can never seem to achieve perfection.
of course it seems like a dream of a lot of coaches to have racial parity at the 2500TV+ range. But alas that is just a dream and will proablly never happen. In box or ranked. |
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On1
Joined: Jul 12, 2004
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Feb 07, 2011 - 20:20 |
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Please don't argue with Catalyst, just let him say what he want. It's impossible to get through to him. And if you actually manage to get through to him, he will put on a show for you about something random.
Just a hint. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Feb 07, 2011 - 20:42 |
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| On1 wrote: | Please don't argue with Catalyst, just let him say what he want. It's impossible to get through to him. And if you actually manage to get through to him, he will put on a show for you about something random.
Just a hint. |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Feb 07, 2011 - 20:44 |
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| Qaz wrote: | | Catalyst32 wrote: | | Se... using that old Olinsky-ite technique of trying to destroy the messenger never succeeds to destroy the MESSAGE... and the message is what has importance. |
So what you are saying is: The "message" is. Go make some soft teams so that your undeads can bash them?
there is a saying: live as you preach. You sure fail here and your so called message looses a lot of validity when you fail to live up to your own messages standards.
and no I have no wish for what other people should play in the box.
In the old box I played mostly CDs and in the new box I have played 4 games with CDs 3 Games with Woodies 5 games with amazons and 10 games with necroes,
Now insted of being laughed at here isent it time for you to go out and play one of the soft teams that you so think the box needs? |
Except that I have not Activated my Undead team for over a week and not my Dorfs since I made this post. I have only allowed my Slann, Human, High Elf and new still unplayed Dark Elf team to be activated. And for the past few days only the Elf teams have been activated.
So again... attacking the messenger is not an argument... it is only meant to shut down a debate and therefore does not affect the message. The message still stands no matter how you attack the messenger.
Attacking what I say doesn't change the fact that my Undead should ALSO get games against non-Bashers should I choose to play my Undead again. I have been considering retiring them... just have not pulled the trigger as of yet... so they remain shelved... unplayed.
Attacking the messenger is a form of dishonesty in a debate and mental laziness. Yet somehow this tactic passes as wisdom here on the interwebz and in many societies in decline across the world. That saddens me. |
Last edited by Catalyst32 on %b %07, %2011 - %20:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Feb 07, 2011 - 20:47 |
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| ignatzami wrote: |
This confirms my suspicion, and a point I've tried to make to Catalyst on a number of occasions in #NWL, bash teams survive early in the box, with high AV they tend to suffer fewer casualties in the lower TVs. This makes them attractive for coaches.
However, once the softer races get skilled up a bit they can easily run circles around a team built to hit, and built to counter other hitters.
I'd be curious to see a skill distribution in Ranked, and FFB, v. Box. I'd hazard a guess you see much more Claw and MB in the box at the expense of Tackle. This over-reliance on hitting makes it even easier for fast agile teams to stay safe, play safe, and win games. |
we have had discussions? The guy that has only come to my attention a week ago.
Perhaps you should inform me that we are talking next time so that we might discuss things. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Feb 07, 2011 - 21:00 |
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| Catalyst32 wrote: | | ignatzami wrote: |
This confirms my suspicion, and a point I've tried to make to Catalyst on a number of occasions in #NWL, bash teams survive early in the box, with high AV they tend to suffer fewer casualties in the lower TVs. This makes them attractive for coaches.
However, once the softer races get skilled up a bit they can easily run circles around a team built to hit, and built to counter other hitters.
I'd be curious to see a skill distribution in Ranked, and FFB, v. Box. I'd hazard a guess you see much more Claw and MB in the box at the expense of Tackle. This over-reliance on hitting makes it even easier for fast agile teams to stay safe, play safe, and win games. |
we have had discussions? The guy that has only come to my attention a week ago.
Perhaps you should inform me that we are talking next time so that we might discuss things. |
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RC
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
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Feb 07, 2011 - 21:03 |
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| DukeTyrion wrote: |
Nice stats.
Good to see Rats at the top of the pile!
Also, interesting to see Dwarves getting their butts kicked over 1800 TV. |
Wonder how many of your games counts in that  |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Feb 07, 2011 - 21:19 |
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Thanks for the stats breakdown. I'm hoping my opponents level out closer to the 'norm'. So far in ten games for me it has been versus:
Necro: 3 (30%)
Dwarf: 2
Chaos: 2
Zon: 1
Undead: 1
Skaven: 1 |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 07, 2011 - 22:33 |
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Thanks Baradzur for this thread and the interesting stats and also thx to PainState for his excellent analysis. |
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ignatzami
Joined: Aug 18, 2008
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Feb 07, 2011 - 22:47 |
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| Catalyst32 wrote: | | ignatzami wrote: |
This confirms my suspicion, and a point I've tried to make to Catalyst on a number of occasions in #NWL, bash teams survive early in the box, with high AV they tend to suffer fewer casualties in the lower TVs. This makes them attractive for coaches.
However, once the softer races get skilled up a bit they can easily run circles around a team built to hit, and built to counter other hitters.
I'd be curious to see a skill distribution in Ranked, and FFB, v. Box. I'd hazard a guess you see much more Claw and MB in the box at the expense of Tackle. This over-reliance on hitting makes it even easier for fast agile teams to stay safe, play safe, and win games. |
we have had discussions? The guy that has only come to my attention a week ago.
Perhaps you should inform me that we are talking next time so that we might discuss things. |
Well, I can at least say I've been talking at you in #NWL, if you've been paying attention, or listening.... eh. |
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Gromrilram
Joined: Aug 28, 2006
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Feb 07, 2011 - 23:17 |
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deleted to go back to topic |
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Last edited by Gromrilram on %b %08, %2011 - %01:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Feb 08, 2011 - 00:23 |
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Except that I AM actually leading by example of what I am saying Gromilram.
What are my last 7 matches? Oh that's right me playing ONLY my High Elves.
And before that me just playing whatever game I get with my 5 teams.
Very non-hypocritical can I be considering 60% of my teams where Slann, Human, High Elf.
Only 20% of my teams are considered Bashers under every definition... my Dwarves.
The other 20%... my Undead are considered under various categories of teams.
See... I made the point that it doesn't matter if I am a hypocrite or not... what matters is my point.
I didn't really try to say I wasn't being a hypocrite... although I believe it is clear based on my record that I am NOT being hypocritical.
You on the other hand are just attacking me as a person based on cherry picked data rather than even attempting to debate my opinion. That is LAME. You really should have given it up 2 pages ago. |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Feb 08, 2011 - 00:35 |
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Also... for some people that think I cannot be convinced of things I have slightly changed my opinion based on what Pain State has written. That and I finally got a stretch of games that have made me reevaluate things... including back-2-back Skaven teams vs my High Elves.
Mind you I had previously gone through stretches where my Humans played the exact same Khemri team back-2-back and basher team after basher team after basher team without a single light opponent to be found in the mix.
This only proves my sample size was skewed earlier though. After 7 straight games with my Elves I got 2 Lizardmen, 2 Skaven, 1 Norse, 1 Necro and 1 Ogre. This is still based on a small sample size though... so my point that so many people are just too scared to play a team that isn't loaded with AV9 in the Box still stands.
For those people that want to pretend that the Box is the best thing to ever happen to FUMBBL and Blood Bowl... it should be reminded that it is the potential variety of the Box that makes it great. If they themselves are not doing anything to help ensure this potential variety exists they are doing harm to the balance of the Box. |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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Feb 08, 2011 - 00:58 |
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the best part of your argument catalyst....
there's no way to prove which teams you're actually activating...at least as far as i've seen, and i could be wrong about that, but i can't recall seeing any documentation anywhere of "activation stats" or something akin...
as far as we know you could be activating every team, and just getting lucky in only pulling elf matches...
--j |
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| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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soranos
Joined: May 14, 2009
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Feb 08, 2011 - 01:11 |
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Personally, I have not played enough games to form an opinion yet.
But the matter that really seems a little bit strange to me is the vigor with which the poor guy is now attacked over a provocative but in the end rather harmless statement. There is nothing against a healthy argument as long as it stays inside the lines, but I question the means which are used here to make a point.
It has become apparent now that at least at handful of members are keeping track of the games this guy plays. Was that really worth it? Take a step back, we all have better things to do with our time. Blood Bowl should be a relaxed, laid back game and that is also the way we should treat our opponents. The Gestapo methods and mob mentality portrayed here by some posters are definitely not cool. The guy probably made a borderline dumb statement (like I said, I can not evaluate it as of now), but some reactions here are way overblown and seem somewhat obsessive.
It is not letting the community make very good and it has been the second time now in a matter of a few days where I felt the need to comment on the manner how coaches who play/opinion something outside the norms (the other time was the Chaos Pact thread as one coach was singled out). In games I never have these experiences and I would guess to have a good time with the offenders in this thread, but for that reason I fell we can do a lot better. |
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