BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
May 19, 2004 - 02:05 |
 
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| TheAnomaly wrote: | | The real problem is that the dice aren't actually random, per se. They're an algorithym that generates a number/side "at random." As with all such systems, they're prone towards the occassional spurt of producing similar sides and faces, especially one right after the other. With a great deal of effort, one can even find the algorythmic patterns that develop over time. Of course, a die works the exact same way, so suck it up and play you pansies. |
AAAAARRRRGGGGHHH!!!!!
Yer killin' me here...
So, you think actual, honest to Nuffle block dice®™ are truly random?
Think about it for a moment. To come up with exactly random distribution of six results (one for each face of the die), the balance would have to be exactly correct. To do so, you'd need a hypothetical substance to make the die which has exactly uniform density - let's say a uniform crystalline structure - otherwise, one side will weight ever so marginally infinitessimally more than an other, one less, etc... It goes without saying that the crystalline structure must contain the exact same number of atoms per face, in order to be _truly_ random.
This substance does not exist and never can in an imperfect universe. Let's just pretend it did.
Now, you need to make sure that each face of the die has the exact same amount carved out to etch the result on it and make sure that each one is filled with exactly the same amount of paint - also made from the aforementioned impossibly uniform-density material, just in a different color.
Now you need to find facilities with exactly 100% precision to cast, test and otherwise manufacture these hypothetical dice with flawless precision. Notice all the absolutes there? In the real world, absolutes like that simply do not exist.
Ok, now to roll the dice, you must do so in an exactly perfect vaccuum (also physically impossible) to keep air resistance from affecting any of the particular shapes carved into the dice more or less than any others. Also, you cannot touch any of the dice, because the sweat and dead skin cells from your skin will throw the balance off.
Ok, are we having fun yet? You have just spent $16.8 Billion in R&D to develop hypothetically impossible apparatus to use a hypothetically impossible material so that you can have a hypothetically perfect die which you cannot ever touch.
Of course, then you remember that your hypothetically perfect balance is thrown off by the movement of the electrons in the atoms which create your hypothetically impossible crystalline latice, so you have to stop the electrons from moving, naturally. This means that you have to cool the die down to absolute zero (also physically impossible). Piece of cake, right?
Ok, so let's just pretend that someone, somehow enlisted the aid of whatever God there might be to defy the very laws of physics and make such a thing. The big question is, naturally, what would it roll?
Well, I can't think of a way to come up with another impossibly absolute way of getting it to tumble differently every time, so let's just pretend that somehow you did so. Congratulations.
You would get streaks of 1s... and 6s and a nice spread of everthing in between. Spread out over an infinite number of rolls (yep, impossible yet again) everything would probably (no way of knowing for sure, since it is random) average out to exactly 3.5 and would probably have a nice, even distribution of 1s through 6s.
That's exactly what the pseudorandom number algorithm you're whining about does. Way better than a real world die made for $.04 a pop.
Now knock it off! |
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Sionis
Joined: Aug 26, 2003
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| Posted:
May 19, 2004 - 02:42 |
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I make a dice offering at least once a week. Hasn't helped, but what can you do? |
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Wombats
Joined: Oct 31, 2003
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May 19, 2004 - 03:23 |
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Get a person to simulate 100 coin flips by picking heads and tails 100 times...
Flip a coin 100 times...
How do you tell the difference?
I forget the exact number but the random one will generally have a sequence of between 4 to 6 tails or between 4 to 6 heads in a row and the human generated one won't. The statistical probability of getting a considerable number of heads or tails in a row is extremely high.
Peoples is not good judges of randomness.
I also suggest typing this when you log into IRC: /me salutes the room with the rainbow trout of fortunate dice rolls
This when you leave: /me bashes <insert dude here> with the halibut of post-match jolliness and happy farewells
And if you're having real problems: /me sacrifices <insert opponent here>'s first born to nuffle upon an altar of dice with six on every side.
Works for me, anyway. |
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www.realultimatepower.net |
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Aequitas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2004 - 03:26 |
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NO, YOU FOOL! You must <b>earn</b> a Halibut®. Try stabbing people with my Halibut® and die, because no one out there is worthy of a Halibut® CEPT ME, the last wielder of said Halibut®. Argh. |
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The goggles, they do nothing! o_0 |
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DropDeadFred
Joined: Mar 05, 2004
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Jun 26, 2004 - 04:34 |
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Aequitas has a point no one should use the halibut, as no one should use my Pimp Slap Of Unrandom Dice
DDF |
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Unxerxes
Joined: Dec 31, 2003
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2004 - 05:02 |
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may I add that you are all very weird? |
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We're all merely specks of dust awaiting the eternal Hoover |
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xeronima
Joined: May 14, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2004 - 05:49 |
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Based on 47 skill rolls between doubbles the dice simply HAS to be random only in a random extract of a pioson function would this ever occure. Most functions would by some time resolve in a equal way, thus producing a doubble. I do how ever believe that the "Luck percentage" is somewhat misguiding ..... |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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Jun 26, 2004 - 07:44 |
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I think the big question is: how does a completely unrandom computer produce a random number?
Do any program writers know the method in which the computer selects the 1-6 when needed? |
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Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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DropDeadFred
Joined: Mar 05, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 26, 2004 - 08:12 |
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people who complain bout the die are sore loosers, do u hear them complain when things are going there way? no never its jus a feeble reason for there terrible loss, 7 times out of ten, out played i complain bout the dice in game but dont ruddy write a thread bout it, u lost acceapt it |
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Sk8bcn is unhappy with my sig so i have changed it to this |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 28, 2004 - 03:50 |
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| bigdog wrote: | | Wichtel wrote: | pseudorandom...random, there is not a real difference. Random numbers are often generated with the internal clock of the PC...well, that thing changes quite fast....ergo => RANDOM
Everything else is really hair-splitting, indeed.
Even the roulette isn't random, cause it's started always on a different position...so it's same like in the PC  |
| Quote: |
The numbers are not random, only pseudorandom. The client uses the Java random class, and the function next(int) to make the acctual dicerolls. This function actually discards values that would make the distribution to uneven.
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If the client discards the values that would make the distribution uneven....That means if player#1 rolls a 6, then the client discards my 6 because it is not evenly distributed. So it is TRUE. If player #1 is having a good game then Player#2 must have a bad game to evenly distribute the 1's and 6's. |
Your grasp of logic is amazing. I hope this post was in jest. If not I must go and have a cry.
Following that train of thought the first die rolls of any given game should be 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, not necessarily in that order. If you can prove to me that that is the case, then maybe I'll listen.
Otherwise, for all intents and purposes, pseudorandomness is just as random, or more random, than any randomness that you can simulate in real life, be it with dice or other methods. |
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Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. |
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Wombats
Joined: Oct 31, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 20, 2004 - 07:50 |
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| Aequitas wrote: | | NO, YOU FOOL! You must <b>earn</b> a Halibut®. Try stabbing people with my Halibut® and die, because no one out there is worthy of a Halibut® CEPT ME, the last wielder of said Halibut®. Argh. |
I refuse to bow to your franchised facist McHalibut regime!
Fish should be free to roam the oceans and slap people as they choose.
Not being paid minimum wage making sneakers and flipping hamburgers for heinous capitalist swine.
On with the revolution! <Aims SquidPult 2000 at Aequitas' head>
FIRE! |
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Ninja versus Pirate . . . Ninja WINS!
www.realultimatepower.net |
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Delta
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 20, 2004 - 08:39 |
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| Aequitas wrote: | | NO, YOU FOOL! You must earn a Halibut®. Try stabbing people with my Halibut® and die, because no one out there is worthy of a Halibut® CEPT ME, the last wielder of said Halibut®. Argh. |
I have yet to earn my Halibut®. Currently I am allowed a baby Guppy Fish of Rage®.
I haven't taught it how to slap yet but as soon as I do you can all look out!  |
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Cain is for Charlie and Delta is for Cain |
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Wombats
Joined: Oct 31, 2003
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| Posted:
Sep 01, 2004 - 09:03 |
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Foolish cherrypicker
Don't make me use this salmon
Lizards ain't bashy |
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Ninja versus Pirate . . . Ninja WINS!
www.realultimatepower.net |
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Ironik
Joined: Jun 28, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 01, 2004 - 09:28 |
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Off topic
By the way of random memories, has anybody played to Risk?
How many times you witnessed the attack of 624,342.821 tanks against a meager 2-3 tanks and the two three tanks caused horrific demages eventually beating the invasion.
A classic of this was the invasion of Indonesia vs Eastern Australia. Hundreds and hundreds of roll and the defender scored double 6....
Anyway last match in FQ I did was much funny. In the second half, the dice started to roll only skull and double 1 for all the second half... For both players...
Am I blitzing toward the 1K quote of this thread?
In any case I have decided NOT to roll gfi. |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Sep 01, 2004 - 09:40 |
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| Aequitas wrote: | | NO, YOU FOOL! You must <b>earn</b> a Halibut®. Try stabbing people with my Halibut® and die, because no one out there is worthy of a Halibut® CEPT ME, the last wielder of said Halibut®. Argh. |
Sadly, there was only one person who was worthy of wielding the Halibut and he's no longer with us.
As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism
Settlers |
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Ignorance is Strength quis custodiet ipsos custodes As Always, Evolve To Anarchism |
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