| Poll |
| Are you joining [B] in the new client? |
| Yes i will join, I played [B] in the old client also! |
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53% |
[ 68 ] |
| Yes i will begin to play [B] because of the changes in the ruleset! |
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7% |
[ 10 ] |
| I will stick to [R] because i like to pick my games |
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3% |
[ 5 ] |
| I will stick to [R] because that's where the majors are |
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7% |
[ 10 ] |
| I will play both [R] and [B] |
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17% |
[ 23 ] |
| What is [B]??? |
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9% |
[ 12 ] |
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| Total Votes : 128 |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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 Posted:
Jul 23, 2010 - 17:01 |
 
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| Cyrus-Havoc wrote: | | I know it won’t happen but I would still like a ‘Blackbox’ option in Ranked division and have no other mainstream divisions at all. |
This is actually working quite well in a number of websites as diverse as Kiseido Go Server or QuakeLive. They all allow you to go into the gamefinder or just let the site find someone for you in their only working division. And nobody complains. They all have ranking systems and tournaments, and really, they work fine. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
Jul 23, 2010 - 17:32 |
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Is that because in Quake (no idea on the other system of which you speak) you start every game as equals?
Picking isn't anything to do with ranking points here, by and large. It's to do with the picker team, now and in the future, being artificially improved as opposed to the norm. In Quake, do you rock up to the next match with a better gun for beating up on a n00b?
That's the issue boxheads would have, their 'pure' (sigh) team playing the team that walked across the skulls of 3 Goblin teams to look that good.
If teams never progressed, and it were all about numbers, I agree, it'd be fine.
It's not just pickers. It's tournament players, minmaxers, many different types of coach. When the game doesn't force everyone to face the same playing pieces and conditions, people want to give themselves the edge. It's human nature.
And shadow, yar, see '*'!  |
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freak_in_a_frock
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 23, 2010 - 18:26 |
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Why all the Blackbox negativity? This is a Blackbox forum! In the Blackbox forum you should expect to find people that like to play in the Blackbox division. If you want to find Ranked fans, go look in the Ranked forum. It isn't exactly rocket science. |
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Rijssiej
Joined: Jan 04, 2005
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| Posted:
Jul 23, 2010 - 19:15 |
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| freak_in_a_frock wrote: | | Why all the Blackbox negativity? This is a Blackbox forum! In the Blackbox forum you should expect to find people that like to play in the Blackbox division. If you want to find Ranked fans, go look in the Ranked forum. It isn't exactly rocket science. |
ROFL |
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freak_in_a_frock
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 23, 2010 - 19:38 |
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If i was carrying a suitcase, i would now put it down and leave it resting. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 23, 2010 - 19:56 |
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A Bloodbowl match is a social event first. Then, it's a game. Lastly, it's a challenge
I prefer to attend to social events with people I get along fine with.
I prefer to play games with people I get along fine with.
When I want a challenge, I am damn able to find it among people I get along fine with.
The Box is an exceptional tool for challenges, but it doesn't let me choose the people I get along fine with. Hence, it is horribly lacking in two out of the three main fields that make my bloodbowl experience enjoyable. Of course, when I just want a game and I don't care about the social part of it, the Box is ok. |
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freak_in_a_frock
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 23, 2010 - 20:06 |
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So does that mean you won't join [B] when the new client goes live?
Also i like your reasoning for not using the Box. I agree with the points you make, just i find that the Box is becoming a close knit community of it's own, and therefore i get the benefits of the social event without having the hassle of weighing each matchup i am offered/offering. I play the box as much to avoid my own picking tendencies as to avoid pickers.
As i said i am really looking forward to FFB in the Box, because i think it lends itself well to that enviroment, much more so than the horrible LRB4 handicaps. Also i love long term teams, and the new ruleset makes this much more viable. The Box is a rough place full of nasty teams that would be ignored in Ranked, there is no denying it. At the moment I have several teams at below 11 players that i don't want to retire, and yet it is a struggle to build them back up. The new ruleset will help make this process much more enjoyable. And if i am truthful i also am looking forward to the new ruleset because Necros finally become a team to be reckoned with, rather than a team that needs the Count to win a tournement. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 23, 2010 - 20:24 |
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The Box is excellent at what it does. It's just that what it does is not everybody's cup of tea.
The box lovers love to imply that those who do not embrace the box are pixelhuggers and wimps. The ranked lovers imply that the box lovers are often just a bunch of sharks trying to lure new preys into a kind of game they wouldn't be able to play in R as easily.
Both are of course right about single cases, and very wrong (and, I believe, in bad faith) whengeneralizing. But I guess that goes without saying. |
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spubbbba
Joined: Jul 31, 2006
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| Posted:
Jul 23, 2010 - 20:31 |
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| freak_in_a_frock wrote: | | Why all the Blackbox negativity? This is a Blackbox forum! In the Blackbox forum you should expect to find people that like to play in the Blackbox division. If you want to find Ranked fans, go look in the Ranked forum. It isn't exactly rocket science. |
By that logic you should close this thread now then. If it's only for people who love [B] already then I'm sure most of them will play it in the new client.
I have nothing against [B] at all, I played it when it first started and it was fine, but i have limited time to play now so most of my time is spent running the WIL Fringe playing games in [L] and either playing in the tour/scheduled smacks/minors or getting a team up to TR for them. If I had more team slots then i'd probably have a couple more [B] teams and play it every now and again but I prefer the [R[ tourney scene.
What I do object to is the constant sniping from [B] coaches, I think you'll find that most of the time the criticism levelled at [B] is retaliation after the same tired sweeping generalisations about [R].
*edit, oh and from what I can see Necros got slightly worse in LRB6. They initially got a little boost, but sadly because they managed to win 13 out of the 20 test games they played they were deemed too strong so re-nerfed. Ok a slight exaggeration but it was a pitiful amount of games used and no consideration given to the TV of teams or the quality of coaches and now we're stuck with it forever. |
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Then check out theWhite Isle Fringe |
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freak_in_a_frock
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 23, 2010 - 20:48 |
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I agree with your logic statement, i wasn't saying that ranked coaches shouldn't join in the conversation, i was just wondering why they felt the need to knock the box with their replies, as i said, this is a blackbox forum, and therefore it is logical to expect an amount of biasedness (i so hope that is a word) towards the box.
**Doh i find that harsh news for the necros  , Mine have started off ok, and i assumed they would continue that way. The only problem i seem to have is how to spend my money. Still until we have full rule compliance it is hard to judge. I suppose i am forgetting that necros always start off well, that is why so many people retire them after 10-15 games and start them again, or just keep them trimmed to be under 175TS |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 23, 2010 - 21:36 |
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not entirely sure why this being a blackbox forum means that there should be expected biasedness in the discussion?...blackbox forum is for discussing blackbox related topics...kinda hard to have a discussion bashing blackbox, without discussing blackbox....
and frankly, if people in this forum are going to be making judgemental blanket statements about coaches not playing in their division, they should be prepared for the targets of said comments to reply with their own defenses...
additionally, why does every blackbox discussion require barbs from either side?...why are coaches incapable of discussing the division without using the opposition as a stepping stone towards making their own division look good?
--j |
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| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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Timlagor
Joined: Feb 13, 2009
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| Posted:
Jul 23, 2010 - 22:06 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | | yes, some people complain that the box is bash heavy, and not enough finesse.... |
There's still some justice to this though I think it is less than many R coaches believe.
| Quote: | | personally, my main complaint is the attitude of B coaches being elitist, and the "if you're not B, you're a cherrypicker and not worthy" mentality that a lot of B coaches have...i also know quite a few coaches who second this opinion....hell, how many times, in this thread alone, has R been bashed for housing all of the cherrypickers & vultures? |
1) Only a minority of coaches post in the forums so your data is very poor
2) you may be taking 'tongue-in-cheek' comments too seriously
3) this attitude would be completely irrelevant to your playing B anyway as you would be in the "elite" group then.
4) All the cherrypickers are in R because that's where you can do it -this is not the same as everyone in R being such but
a) you only need to bump into a couple to have your opinion coloured
b) they tend to spend more time and talk to more people in the process of arranging their games which makes more people run into them in the arrangement phase.
I have never seen any such comments on the B channel or in a B game.
it doesn't have anything to do with not liking people...but why should i be forced into competing against these coaches that i don't want to be involved with?
| Quote: | | you're also forgetting another key complaint that some people have, which actually does regard people's dislike towards some coaches on here...people dislike playing against certain types of playstyle, |
Well this is just the "B is bashy" complaint again. |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 23, 2010 - 22:19 |
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| Timlagor wrote: | 1) Only a minority of coaches post in the forums so your data is very poor
2) you may be taking 'tongue-in-cheek' comments too seriously
3) this attitude would be completely irrelevant to your playing B anyway as you would be in the "elite" group then.
4) All the cherrypickers are in R because that's where you can do it -this is not the same as everyone in R being such but
a) you only need to bump into a couple to have your opinion coloured
b) they tend to spend more time and talk to more people in the process of arranging their games which makes more people run into them in the arrangement phase. |
1) actually, most of my experience with the elitist "ranked = cherrypickers" comments are in IRC, not on the forums....so no, my data is not very poor...additionally, the viewpoint that blackbox coaches feel superior & elitist wouldn't exist, if there wasn't some truth to the volume of comments bashing the participants of the ranked division...
2) tongue-in cheek comments were funny the first 20 or 30 times...after several hundred scathing "if you play ranked, you're a cherrypicker" comments, it ceases being tongue-in cheek, and starts being offensive
3) the statement cannot be made irrelevant, particularly when a coach refuses to be a part of a community who insists on embracing that mentality...it's akin to someone saying "preaching hate speech is irrelevant when you have joined that group"...it doesn't make the speech any less hateful or deragtory
4) i've seen plenty of cherrypicking in B also, only in B it's called "powergaming"...remember the 0RR+Leader TS exploits?...people intentionally buying 0 RR, taking leader, to keep their TS low so they can rape low TR teams with heavy hitting bashers?....yeah...that's totally not cherrypicking at all...
| Timlagor wrote: | | I have never seen any such comments on the B channel or in a B game. |
maybe if you were to look at main chat more often, you'd see plenty of these comments...hell billbrasky & on1 are notorious for being some of the loudest egotists about how ranked is filled with cherrypickers, and blackbox is the only division where "pure" blood bowl takes place....and why bother chatting amongst yourselves with "ranked = cherrypicker" discussions, when you can incite more outcry by doing it in main chat, or on the forums?
| Timlagor wrote: | | Quote: | | you're also forgetting another key complaint that some people have, which actually does regard people's dislike towards some coaches on here...people dislike playing against certain types of playstyle, |
Well this is just the "B is bashy" complaint again. |
no..it's really not....
yes "bash" is a playstyle...but so is intentional slow play, ignoring the ball to foul for 16 turns, etc etc...
--j |
_________________
| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
Last edited by shadow46x2 on %b %23, %2010 - %22:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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Malmir
Joined: May 20, 2008
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| Posted:
Jul 23, 2010 - 22:20 |
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Here, here. Right now I'm sat looking at a dry gf and almost made a bb team but after listening to On1 just couldn't bring myself to do so.
| spubbbba wrote: | | It depends if the FBB [B] division is still filled with the same annoying fanboi's who continually spam chat and the forum about how great the division is and how everyone in [R] is an ebil, cowardly picker. Ironically not realising that their attitude is what puts people like me off the idea of playing in the division. |
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RandomOracle
Joined: Jan 11, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 23, 2010 - 22:22 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: |
4) i've seen plenty of cherrypicking in B also, only in B it's called "powergaming"...remember the 0RR+Leader TS exploits?...people intentionally buying 0 RR, taking leader, to keep their TS low so they can rape low TR teams with heavy hitting bashers?....yeah...that's totally not cherrypicking at all...
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If FB[B] games are arranged using TV, would you say minimizing TV bloat is cherrypicking? Or powergaming? |
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