skummy
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Sep 23, 2003 - 18:44 |
 
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Wild Animals are pretty popular in javabowl, and it seems that they are quite a bit better in this format than they are in tabletop. More than anything else, they have a few little rules tweaks in their advantage that changes the game.
The first one is that they aren't always the first player to move in their turn. Other players on their team automatically roll over before the wild animal moves, and that's pretty clearly a bonus for wild animal. This may seem like a small thing, but when a WA causes a turnover, it gives stunned players a chance to act the next turn anyway. (As an aside, Trolls are slightly worse in Javabowl becasue a coach can't move a player over to help with the really stupid roll if their troll is stunned.)
The second problem with WA is that the javabowl client itself does not let a coach make a mistake on moving wild animals first. Again, I understand this was implemented to make the WA's more user friendly, but this is another significant upgrade to them and it runs against the way the rules are written in the LRB.
Together, it adds up to significantly more Wild Animals and better WA use in javabowl than in other leagues. |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sep 23, 2003 - 18:55 |
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Well I gotta disagree with you a bit there skummy. I don't think wild animals are as popular as you think. There have been many good coaches screwed by the Mino trap. A turnover from a skull on the 1st move is devastating to a team. Plus frenzy sometimes puts you in a crappy situation. I have sworn them off my Norse team and will use my Ogre's instead. At least I can save my Ogre skull for the LAST move of my turn. |
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dertre
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sep 23, 2003 - 19:02 |
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Sure, but perhaps is it due to the fact that players in fumbbl may be a little bit less experienced (on the whole) than board players that spent much more time on bloodbowl...
Minos and Ratogres still gets trapped often (when i play them, i always try to) and this is really nasty sometimes.
Personnaly, i never take WA... |
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SkiJunkie
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sep 23, 2003 - 22:07 |
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I believe are referring to illegal procedures? Illegal procedures are only in the (table top) game to make sure people remember to move the turn marker and remember to follow rules sure and wild animal. Originally, the game was play tested without illegal procedures and they found that the game was almost broken due to the number of times the turn marker was forgotten, etc. So they added illegal procedures. If one coach can penalize the other then you really get both players watching for turn markers and such, thus the illegal procedure rule saved the day. This rule is only there to make sure the other rules are followed properly. When the computer is doing the work you don't need this rule as there is nothing to forget. So this wasn't changed to make it more friendly. I was removed as an unnecessary table top rule.
As for the auto roll over, that was my lack of foresight. When I put it in many of the skills were unimplemented and I couldn't think of why it would make a difference. Now it will require quite a bit of work to change. |
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psikobunny
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sep 23, 2003 - 22:31 |
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Well one of the rumors for the rules review is that rollover will become automatic anyway right? Maybe that should go onto the "wait and see" change list. |
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Azurus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sep 23, 2003 - 22:32 |
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Can't say I see much of a problem with the way Wild Animals work in JavaBB, I like the streamlined approach. And i think stunned players should get to turn over in the board game too.
One thing i agree with Skummy on is that Big Guys in general are FAR more widespread on FUMBBL than in the board game, and this is not (IMHO) a good thing. I play mostly in divX, so i'm asking for it, but it's very hard to find a team with no big guy. |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sep 23, 2003 - 22:51 |
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| Azurus wrote: |
One thing i agree with Skummy on is that Big Guys in general are FAR more widespread on FUMBBL than in the board game, and this is not (IMHO) a good thing. |
I can't imagine why that would be so. We only play by the exact LRB rules except in cases where client issues prevent it, so it's not like we have some house rule that makes them more effective. |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sep 23, 2003 - 23:12 |
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| Mr-Klipp wrote: | ...
I can't imagine why that would be so.
... |
No expensive minis to buy?
(Sorry, just a joke. A very very small one.)
I can't help but see the same thing and I think it started somewhere as an arms race.
"If I don't buy my Ogre, then I'll never keep up with that team and they're ranked #4 in Open! I need an Ogre!" Followed by: "Wow. Those orcs destroyed my Skaven. That damn Ogre... I hate WA, but I guess I need a Rat Ogre to compete..." Repeat ad nauseum. That's what happened to me, at least.
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Sep 23, 2003 - 23:36 |
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| BadMrMojo wrote: | | Mr-Klipp wrote: | ...
I can't imagine why that would be so.
... |
No expensive minis to buy?
(Sorry, just a joke. A very very small one.)
I can't help but see the same thing and I think it started somewhere as an arms race. |
But why would that be unique to here? |
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Colin
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sep 23, 2003 - 23:43 |
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| BadMrMojo wrote: | I can't help but see the same thing and I think it started somewhere as an arms race.
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I absolutely agree; it was a much greater problem in 3rd ed rules, with Star Players. A TR 100 team would start with as many high-strength Stars as possible (e.g. Lord Borak was a real bargain for the Chaos, effectively costing about the same as a Chaos Warrior and a TRR). Playing with Dwarfs in those days was hard...
The modern-day Big Guys are nowhere near as good but the value of having one in an otherwise all-Str 3 team is great; if nothing else, an Ogre can tie up two or three opposing linemen - then of course we come to the old PO/RSC combination...(which has been done to death, so I'll not elaborate). The only way to combat this is have a Big Guy of your own (some teams may not roll a skill double for ages, to get a Dauntless player, and elves often have to go for Guard instead), hence the 'arms race'.
The bashy nature of DivX began because most people took one of the new experimental rosters (almost all are very bashy indeed), rather than an official roster (they already had plenty of those in Open), which promoted the arms race culture in that division at least. If it were to be scrubbed clean and restarted, it may develop differently (and be dominated by wood elf teams  ) |
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TheLegend
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sep 23, 2003 - 23:53 |
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there's a skaven player in my local league who often ditches a reroll to prevent his Rat Ogre from falling down to start the turn (i.e, blitzing away a lineman or simply preventing assists) I think this strategy should be an option in Javabowl |
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Mordachai
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sep 24, 2003 - 00:10 |
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Does that actually work according to the rules? Doesn't the IP call interrupt the action, forcing the "correct" action to be taken?
Or in another viewpoint. If the blitzer (for arguments sake) is moved before the WA and the opponent calls an IP, when the action is continued can't the opponent call for IP again? He is still moving another player before the WA after all... can he continue and finish the action? |
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Darkwolf
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Sep 24, 2003 - 00:38 |
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Wow, some really good points here. I agree with the 'arms-race' theory as to why there are alot of big guys in this league. I have seen the impact 1 good big guy can make in a league with alot of 3 st players. I have no problems finding matches for my high elves, due to that there is no 5St on the team. I have a troll who has no skills after 12 games and am begging to see him become less and less effective without block. On my dwarf team I am NOT buying an Ogre, but can only do that b/c of the two troll slayers on the team and alot of guard.
As a coach that wins first, cas second, I see big guys more as a liability than an asset at times. I often have one just to plug the middle and occupy the other 5st big guy on the other team. If I faced less and less big guys, I would not even buy one with my teams. |
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skummy
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Sep 24, 2003 - 05:54 |
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| The_Legend wrote: | | there's a skaven player in my local league who often ditches a reroll to prevent his Rat Ogre from falling down to start the turn (i.e, blitzing away a lineman or simply preventing assists) I think this strategy should be an option in Javabowl |
This is illegal. He loses a reroll if he declares an action with another player. If he tries to take that action, you can call him on illegal procedure again. |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Sep 24, 2003 - 06:00 |
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| skummy wrote: | | The_Legend wrote: | | there's a skaven player in my local league who often ditches a reroll to prevent his Rat Ogre from falling down to start the turn (i.e, blitzing away a lineman or simply preventing assists) I think this strategy should be an option in Javabowl |
This is illegal. He loses a reroll if he declares an action with another player. If he tries to take that action, you can call him on illegal procedure again. |
That was my gut reaction as well. However, I took a look at the rule book and it says: (emphasis mine)
"If you take an action with another player before moving all Wild Animals, then your opponent can call you for illegal procedure exactly as if you had forgotten to move the Turn marker."
Note it says take and not declare. It still feels slimy as hell, however per the exact wording in the book it seems that this may be legal. |
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