Joemanji
Joined: Jan 15, 2011
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 Posted:
Apr 09, 2011 - 15:46 |
 
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Disclaimer: This isn't a thread about mud slinging or whinging about Clawpomb. I also don't think rankings are that important. I'm just interesting in the dynamic of the BWR.
So RandomOracle is clear at the top of the BWR by over 7 full points. Only 3 points separate coaches ranked 2-10. This seems pretty significant. So why has this situation come about?
1) Is RandomOracle just that much better than everyone else in terms of coaching? Is it possible for anyone in a game as random as BB to be so clearly better than everyone else?
2) Is RandomOracle just that much better than everyone else in terms of team building within the context of Blackbox? Has everyone else not caught on yet?
3) RandomOracle is essentially playing only one team (126 games). This means a higher proportion of his games will be at higher TV. Does this allow his coaching to tell when others are playing more 'lottery' games at lower TVs?
4) Did he just get on the Clawpomb bandwagon first? Is "Chuck versus Blood Bowl" an example of someone decisively winning an arms race? Is his team bigger and meaner than anything else to the point where anyone who tries to build along similiar lines soon meets CvBB and gets sent crashing back down in tatters. Only playing with CvBB means it is very hard for anyone with TV over 200 to avoid them for long.
Again not passing any judgement on RO, Clawpomb or anyone else. Just generally interested in the situation that has developed in Blackbox. |
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Falcone
Joined: Dec 21, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 09, 2011 - 15:48 |
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the damage he causes sure helps but he is also a really good blood bowl coach. |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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Apr 09, 2011 - 15:51 |
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Just bring Norse against his bashers... he loves that!
__Synn |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 09, 2011 - 15:54 |
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He was quick to build that team yes. So possibly winner of the arms race initially in some respects, but I dont think that accounts for his BWR. He is obviously a top draw coach too.
He recently lost a large number of key players from his team and his TV dropped massively but he managed to get his team back up to the high TV area in very little time so I do think he is not just a good coach in terms of winning but he also does it in a way that preserves his key players and limits his opponent to only hurting the less important players on his roster and allows him to develop his team very quickly. This I think is his key to success because he seems to play less team repairing games than most people. |
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spubbbba
Joined: Jul 31, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 09, 2011 - 15:57 |
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You forgot:
5) Blackbox isn't actually all that competitive.
RO's tea, is well designed to take on bashers at high TV which is what you'll face the vast majority of the time at high TV in [B]. Coupled with the fact that he's a very good coach and has probably played more high Tv games with Chaos vs bashers than any other coach in the world using crp. |
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Reisender
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
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Apr 09, 2011 - 15:58 |
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he is a really good coach.
i do not think that he is soooo much better than all others as the BWR difference tells. he may still be number 1 overall coach (although that is a feature difficult to describe depending on team choice etc.), as his record is very very impressive nonetheless.
i think he uses the best team build at high TR
and he uses it much better than any other clawpomb coach. it would be interesting to see PeteW, Flix, Purplechest or some others playing the pomb. although more clawpomb is not needed at the moment  . most clawpomb teams lack guard, tackle and a carrier, his does not. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Apr 09, 2011 - 16:06 |
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There is a really good quote from him on TFF, I will try and find it.
He basically says that he knows he is not that much better than the others in that top 10 list, and he felt that the combo was making winning to easy in a lot of occasions, where games were over in 3 turns because of high cas counter and then he could then farm spp etc... (this was in that huge claw thread on TFF. he made some very interesting points there)
Spubbba also makes a good point though. There are very few elves around at that TV at the moment usually because as soon as they get there they get smashed to bits but they often win in the process. But if there were more he would probably lose a few more games.
Also there are no wizards yet which will dent his win record if he continues sitting on top of the pile in terms of TV. |
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Last edited by Garion on %b %09, %2011 - %16:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Apr 09, 2011 - 16:11 |
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I think he is very good for sure.
I think there are a lot of other factors as to why his BWR is so high, and to be fair being lucky enough to keep his two Beastmen legends alive for so long is part of it. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Apr 09, 2011 - 16:19 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | and to be fair being lucky enough to keep his two Beastmen legends alive for so long is part of it. |
That part isnt luck I dont think, he keeps them so well protected every game that even when he starts getting out bashed he can usually pull the defecit back and they have been alive so long.
But he is a top top coach no question.
Also Chaos are far better at maintaining a high TV and getting there quickly than any of the other mutation bashy teams like CDs or nurgle because they all have average ma and average agility so skilling any player up is pretty easy especially when there are so few players left on the pitch. |
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Carnis
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
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Apr 09, 2011 - 16:32 |
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His playstyle is very ball oriented, in that he pressures the ballcarrier, while taking free clawpomb hits every turn he can.. Essentially this usually leads to a situation where he a) outnumbers the opponent b) outpositions the opponent. His team is also very well equipped to take out other bashers (the most common opposition at that TV), and he has an awesome blodging ballcarrier. He also values position over piling on, so he often chooses not to pile on though its safe to do so. A very good coach with a very good team. I think Chaos is the optimal race to build for high TV, but its much harder to maintain up there (due to SE + LOS linemen) when compared with teams such as nurgle.
The challenging matches for him would be ones where he faces all blodged up elves (with some fend mixed in) or other well built clawpomb teams. We played today, I was very close to winning, I think with 2-3 better played turns (by me, at least T5 and T7 on first half) I would have got the win too, the injury dice were favourable and under all that clawpomb is still just another team that cannot take punishment in a prolongued fight.
I think the key to winning with a clawpomb team is finding the right balance of clawpomb vs useful skills, then finding the right balance of when to go after the ball, when to go for numbers and when to go for opponent's killers.. He manages this very well.
In our match I focused much more on hitting his killers and he focused much more on hitting my BC, in the end that netted me more ko/cas and almost a win and it netted him (especially my T5 ;]) the 0-0 draw despite being down in numbers almost whole game.
That being said, the BWR system heavily favours coaches who only play a winning team (sweetspot), and he can usually turn the draws into wins as well, which is another reason he remains up there.. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Apr 09, 2011 - 16:36 |
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Sorry Garion it is just luck for sure. I've watched quite a few of RO's games, they have been badly hurt a lot and the one perm he has got on them doesn't matter because of a bug.
The fact that he tries to win so much puts more survivability pressure on the beastmen, not less, as he will apo an important injury or put them in harms way for the good of the team.
Chaos are better at winning than Nurgle sure.
And bashier than CDs because they don't need double for claw.
Also he had a CW that lost MA and AG through injuries which is not even that bad so the CWs do gain a certain durability factor due to their better starting stats.
I agree with everything Carnis said in his last post, sums it up quite well. |
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Last edited by JimmyFantastic on %b %09, %2011 - %16:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Apr 09, 2011 - 16:41 |
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I think -av works now. I may be wrong though, but i thought it was fixed in the last release. |
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Last edited by Garion on %b %09, %2011 - %16:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Apr 09, 2011 - 16:49 |
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Also I would add that there really is a scarcity of well built clawpomb teams at that TV, RO is mostly playing worse bash teams than he has and worse coaches than he is, it's hardly surprising that he is so dominant. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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Keith-Lemon
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 09, 2011 - 17:34 |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Apr 09, 2011 - 20:13 |
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very good coach with a very big gun
oo errr |
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