| Poll |
| Are the lizzies at an disadvantage due to the ST-rating? |
| Yes, they are rated higher than their actual strenght. |
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38% |
[ 63 ] |
| No, they are rated at they actual strenght. |
|
20% |
[ 33 ] |
| No, they are rated lower than their actual strenght. |
|
6% |
[ 10 ] |
| Only nerds or noobs care about team-strenght. |
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34% |
[ 57 ] |
| Other. (Please state below) |
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1% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 165 |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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  Posted:
Jul 21, 2004 - 13:33 |
 
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I have been playing lizzies now for quite a while and I have to say, that they are screwed through the fumbbl-st-system.
In open, game are made nearly exclusivly with about even ST-rating and not with equal TR in mind and that´s the problem.
The sauri+krox get an additional +2 on the strengthrating, because they have ST4 and MA6 (which sums up in +14 teamstrenght, that you cannot use). This rule was introduced, IIRC, to show the increase use of ST4 on a blitzer than on a zomie. That´s OK, but a saurus has AG1, so you cannot use him as a reliable ballcarrier and you cannot dodge away from the lino covering you and blitz a reciever. To do the later, you have to take break tackle, which gives you an additional +2 on the ST, increasing the strenght to obscene heights. A sauri with breaktackle adds about the same ST to your team as an Block/guard/tackle-blackorc or a Block/FA-chaoswarrior.
That´s not right in my opinion!
In addition, a skink is somehow worth the same than a woodelf-lino, which is very strange, as they break easier, have lower AG and ST and only one extra MA.
Conclusion:
Please add the High-ST-High-MV-bonus only to a player with an AG of at least 2, as players those players have a probablity of more that 50% (if you have a spare-reroll) to dodge into open or pickup the ball. |
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Kommando
Joined: Dec 08, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 22, 2004 - 01:31 |
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well, i imo the problem lies rather in the high move bonus that fumbbl gives, i'd be pretty happy if that could be slightly weakened (i really don't see what makes a skaven linerat better than a human or orc for that matter, actually i'd prefer my skaven to have all orcish linemen) |
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AvatarDM
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 22, 2004 - 01:47 |
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Well, there is one problem: on linemen MA isn't that important (it's more important they are cheap or have high AV), but on positional players, MA is really important... |
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Glomp
Joined: Jan 04, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 22, 2004 - 03:01 |
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I'm not too fussed by TS anyway. Based on site experience TS has verry little to do for how the game will go for me.
The handicap table may be inefectual at times but TR does seem to have a bigger impact on the game than TS as long as the difference is large enough to award handicaps. Otherwise I see no issues there either.
The thing that concerns me when choosing a game is my opponents roster which I will check habitually so that I know whats coming.
In fact the only time TR/TS applies to me is when someone refuses to play me based on that figure.
They are both useful as a ballpark estimate of a teams capability but I don't see why either are particulaly important. |
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Glomp
Joined: Jan 04, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 22, 2004 - 03:09 |
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| Kommando wrote: | | well, i imo the problem lies rather in the high move bonus that fumbbl gives, i'd be pretty happy if that could be slightly weakened (i really don't see what makes a skaven linerat better than a human or orc for that matter, actually i'd prefer my skaven to have all orcish linemen) |
I'm not sure but I think in that example the skaven linerat is going to do more to help you win the game than the slow MA5 orc lineman. It can get into better positions and has a higher threat of scoring associated with it.
TS shouldn't take account of a teams long term viability - rather how tough the nextmatch is going to be. |
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The_mighty_Spliff
Joined: Mar 07, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 22, 2004 - 03:34 |
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Well, TS is nice, but it really isn`t as important as pustus allready mentioned....
And the 40 TS cap was only selected to prevent noob hunting and such things, so it`s ok I belive!
And the players who dar eafraid to play Lizards with higher TS, well they wouldn`t play lizzies even with lower TS.... So who cares?
On the Movement-point-of-mind I`ll stick to gobbo-moon-avatar-man..... the higher Movement the higher threat!
And having "break tackle" makes the Saurus really interesting! But even without, I`ve seen a saurus score more often then I`ve seen a BOB runnin to the endzone... IMO speed kills! 
BTW, what "other" can there be besides stronger, weaker, right or "I don`t care"(<- that would be other, but why should anyone post it and why should anyone care about this opp?!) |
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Kommando
Joined: Dec 08, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 22, 2004 - 12:47 |
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| inquisitorpustus wrote: | I'm not sure but I think in that example the skaven linerat is going to do more to help you win the game than the slow MA5 orc lineman. It can get into better positions and has a higher threat of scoring associated with it.
TS shouldn't take account of a teams long term viability - rather how tough the nextmatch is going to be. |
um. i doubt that a team with 4 GRs needs a lineman for TD. on the other hand, having more than half your team on the field helps a lot, especially the defense. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 22, 2004 - 14:36 |
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| The_mighty_Spliff wrote: |
On the Movement-point-of-mind I`ll stick to gobbo-moon-avatar-man..... the higher Movement the higher threat!
And having "break tackle" makes the Saurus really interesting! But even without, I`ve seen a saurus score more often then I`ve seen a BOB runnin to the endzone... IMO speed kills! |
Well, I have seen BoBs score quite often, as a handoff to an AG2-player is quite likely to succeed. Sauri can only use their movement in combination with break tackle, for which they get extra +2 ontop of the TS-increase for the skill.
Teamstrenght is quite important, as it determines the range of your opponents. You get challenged by teams of about the same TS and with lizzies, you have to dodge them, because it´s no fair matchup and I for my part hate this dodging. |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 22, 2004 - 15:16 |
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How can anyone resist the fourth option... |
_________________
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.
Oscar Wilde |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 22, 2004 - 16:25 |
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Because there are some people actually thinking about the question...  |
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Vero
Joined: Dec 30, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 22, 2004 - 18:22 |
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It's clear that str4 and mv6 with that is an advantace but that's the ag1 that's overestimated! With ag1 and reroll you can't really dodge when desperate, with ag2 and reroll it's possible. So ag1 needs further -2 points of str.
And I really think str figure is only a good way to approximate teams winning abilities. |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 22, 2004 - 18:28 |
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Glomp
Joined: Jan 04, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 22, 2004 - 18:58 |
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| Kommando wrote: | | inquisitorpustus wrote: | I'm not sure but I think in that example the skaven linerat is going to do more to help you win the game than the slow MA5 orc lineman. It can get into better positions and has a higher threat of scoring associated with it.
TS shouldn't take account of a teams long term viability - rather how tough the nextmatch is going to be. |
um. i doubt that a team with 4 GRs needs a lineman for TD. on the other hand, having more than half your team on the field helps a lot, especially the defense. |
But your assuming the gutter runners will be in a position to score all the time or that the team in question even has a gutter runner!
People are going to make a larger attempt to tie up gutter runners as they are the major scoring threat on skaven teams.
As they are less likely to pay more than a little attention to all the pissy linemen its certainly plausable that in quite a few situations a pass to a MA7 lineman may be bettter that to an MA9 gutter runner.
The same principle is unlikely to carry through on an orc team (as the above example used). With MA5 orc lineman are not much of a scoring threat. They are unlikely to put enough distance between themselves and the opposing teams players to prevent a blitz. They are also less able to get into a position where their AV9 body has a chance of affecting the game.
Also remember that being a couple of touchdowns in the lead is very usefull when you need to win. Even if a large percentage of your team is in the dead and injured box after the first half, a convincing lead in the first will be very usefull in securing the victory.
With a reduced team it is still perfectly possible to stall an opposing team to such an extent that 2 touchdowns in the remaining time is very difficult for them.
In essence the movement gives you a major advantage at the start of the game and is important in defence when your numbers may be depleted.
And in any case for 50k a rat I couldn't care less how many die.
In fact i'm often tempted to stamp on them myself.  |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 22, 2004 - 19:38 |
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The whole issue is, that lizzies suffer from a st-bonus, they should not get, because they cannot use their MA in a way, a CW or even a BoB can, because of AG1.
It gives lizzies a default +14 on ST (Assuming a full rooster) that is ridiculous on TS below 180. As you have to challenge down to get an even game, this affects the playablitiy of them, which is really sad because it could be avoided easily. |
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Glomp
Joined: Jan 04, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 22, 2004 - 19:49 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | The whole issue is, that lizzies suffer from a st-bonus, they should not get, because they cannot use their MA in a way, a CW or even a BoB can, because of AG1.
It gives lizzies a default +14 on ST (Assuming a full rooster) that is ridiculous on TS below 180. As you have to challenge down to get an even game, this affects the playablitiy of them, which is really sad because it could be avoided easily. |
Do you really need to dodge that badly?
I don't rate lizardmen really anyway but in games against some exceptionally good coaches they seem to have no problem with getting saurus free of the pack and getting them into favourable positions.
In any case I doubt the +14 st makes much difference since the rest of the team is comprised of stunties. 
As for playing up goes you obviously asking the wrong people. I'm always on the lookout to play lizardmen with my woodelves and playing higher ranked lizardmen usually has no real effect on my victory. Oh and I get handicaps too? yay
There is no such thing as a player who cant use his stats/skills. You just have to engineer situations where your strengths count.
(p.s. higher stength players are more dangerous simply for the reason that you have to commit more players to them and ST is a stat that many teams are ill equipped to deal with) |
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